Preamble

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions — TRADE AND INDUSTRY

Monopolies and Restrictive Practices

Dr. Gilbert: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he is now in a position to make a statement about the Government's policy on monopolies and restrictive practices.

The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and President of the Board of Trade (Mr. John Davies): I hope to make a statement shortly.

Dr. Gilbert: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that we have seen very little progress in this area since it was mentioned in the Gracious Speech nearly a year ago? Can he tell us specifically how many references or suggestions for references have been made to him by the Monopolies Commission under the power he gave it last year? Secondly, can he say whether the Monopolies Commission is empowered to take suggestions from the general public?

Mr. Davies: I have discussed with the Monopolies Commission a number of suggestions which were put forward and initiated both by others and by the Commission. As the hon. Gentleman knows, I have made a considerable number of references recently and I am very much fulfilling what I undertook to the House to do, that is to use the existing machinery to its fullest extent pending the development of any new legislation. This is my plan.

Mr. Normanton: Would my right hon. Friend agree that the Statement of Intent as originally published may at present be conditioned by the imminence of entry or otherwise of Britain into the Common Market, and that under those circumstances a monopoly outside the Common Market may not be a monopolistic situation once we are inside it?

Mr. Davies: It is certainly my full intention when I make my statement to embrace within it only those things which seem compatible with membership of the Community in due course. Therefore any proposed legislation will clearly need to have regard to existing requirements or the existing state of the game in the Community.

Paper and Board Industry

Mr. William Hamilton: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what progress has been made in discussions with the Scandinavian members the European Free Trade Association concerning the future of the United Kingdom paper and board industry.

The Minister for Industry (Sir John Eden): Talks are continuing between representatives of the United Kingdom industry and their Scandinavian counterparts.

Mr. Hamilton: Can the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that it is the Government's firm intention to take whatever steps are required to maintain an independent United Kingdom paper industry? Can he give a categoric assurance that the Scandinavian countries are fully conforming to the E.F.T.A. agreements?

Sir J. Eden: I would rather wait to see the outcome of the talks now taking place between the British and the Scandinavian industries. It would be better to await the report of these talks before taking any further decisions.

Mr. Trew: Is my hon. Friend aware of the fears in the industry that Sweden and Finland are seeking a form of association with the E.E.C. which would give them the benefits of membership without any of the obligations? Have Her Majesty's Government made an representations on this matter?

Sir J. Eden: The Commission of the E.E.C. has not yet put proposals to Her Majesty's Government about the terms on which the trade arrangements for non-applicant E.F.T.A. countries should be negotiated. When these proposals have been put to us we shall know how best to proceed.

Upper Clyde Shipbuilders

Mr. Strang: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement on the developments which have taken place at Upper Clyde Shipbuilders during the Parliamentary Recess.

Mr. Douglas: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement on the total Government financial commitment involved in maintaining a shipbuilding capability on the Upper Clyde.

Mr. Rankin: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what progress has been made in securing a settlement of the dispute with Upper Clyde Shipbuilders; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. John Davies: I would refer hon. Members to the statement which I made on 20th October.—[Vol. 823, c. 724–36.]

Mr. Strang: Can the right hon. Gentleman now confirm that he is giving the necessary guarantees for the completion of the ships at Govan Shipbuilders Ltd.? Furthermore, is he prepared to say that the Government are ready to go much further than they have done, although we welcome that has been done? Would he confirm that assistance will be available at Scotstoun and Clydebank over and above that available under the Local Employment Acts?

Mr. Davies: There is a Written Question down today about the guarantees. Perhaps it would help the hon. Gentleman to know that I am fully prepared to give the guarantees in question, though there are certain purely formal issues to be resolved between Irish Shipping and the Government before that is done.
As to the question of assistance to any purchaser of the other yards and any embracing of the Scotstoun Yard within the Govan Shipbuilders project, I have made it clear that the Government are

prepared to see these as eligible for assistance under the Local Employment Acts, and clearly I shall have to consider the proposals put forward with regard to what the Government can then do.

Mr. Douglas: Would the Minister agree that he is departing, in the submission of these guarantees, from his view of the commercial viability of the shipyards, because, if he gives those guarantees at the current price these ships will actually have been put in at a loss? Would he confirm that he is not moving towards adhering to his objective, which was to seek means of preserving the employment in all four yards of U.C.S.? Unless be does so and gives a specific indication to this House that he is moving towards that objective, the co-operation of the workers will be hard to get.

Mr. Davies: I think the hon. Member would have some difficulty in quoting me precisely on the remark that I would continue to move towards employment in all four yards. I do not remember making such a statement. As for the previous part of his question, of course it will entirely depend upon Govan Shipbuilders being able in the event to put forward a proposal which commands respect in terms of its future viability. Clearly it would have been impracticable for them to do so if the work had stopped. Surely the hon. Member of all people should realise how serious the situation would have been if there had been no work available.

RB-211

Mr. Whitehead: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement about the financing of the RB-211 engine, under manufacture by Rolls-Royce (1971) Limited.

Mr. Walter Johnson: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a further statement on the Rolls-Royce RB-211 engine.

Mr. Waddington: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a further statement on the future of the Rolls-Royce RB-211 programme.

The Minister for Aerospace (Mr. Frederick Corfield): By 14th September all the pre-conditions had been


met for the continuation of the RB-211 programme for the Lockheed TriStar. The Rolls-Royce Lockheed contract for the engine and the Government's undertaking to finance the RB-211 programme accordingly took effect. I am sure the House will wish this major project every success.

Mr. Whitehead: May I ask whether the funds now being made available for the RB-211 project include funds for the continuance of work on the up-rated engine? My information is that work on the up-rated engine at the Derby Engine Division is now being postponed for some six months. Secondly, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there will be any redundancies at the office closing at the Derby Engine Division, announced last week? Thirdly, can he tell us what the present state of the order book is for Lockheed TriStar and whether it includes any order for British airlines interested?

Mr. Corfield: With regard to the question of redundancies, all I can say is that funds are available for the RB-211 project to go ahead, but I cannot commit the management to the actual manpower at any particular stage. With regard to the number of aircraft on order, it is now 149. This results from the subtraction of the 29 Air Holdings aircraft which were not actually ordered by the airlines. With regard to the up-rated engine, I think the House must appreciate that this requirement will depend on Lockheed's estimate of what is desirable and what Lockheed themselves can undertake, and on Rolls-Royce consideration when the estimate is given.

Mr. Johnson: Would the Minister not agree that the lack of firm orders for TriStar is very worrying indeed, and in these circumstances would he now try to persuade B.E.A. to place an order or at least to make a declaration of intent? Would the Minister agree that the lack of firm orders could cause a very serious cash flow problem in future?

Mr. Corfield: While I appreciate that, all these matters apply equally to Hawker Siddeley, who are interested in the A300 B, and it is not for me to bring pressure to bear on B.E.A. at this stage.

Mr. Waddington: May I, on behalf of many people who live in my constituency,

congratulate the Minister warmly on the calm, sensible manner with which he has handled this whole affair?

Mr. Corfield: I am very grateful to my hon. and learned Friend, and I would like to pay tribute to the restraint in all parts of the House during those crucial negotiations.

Concorde

Mr. Sheldon: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a further statement on Concorde.

Mr. Adley: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a further statement on the Concorde project.

Mr. Wall: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement on the progress of the Concorde programme.

Mr. Corfield: The flight tests of the two prototype aircraft have continued to make satisfactory progress, and the first of the two pre-production aircraft is expected to fly shortly from Filton. Manufacture of the first 10 production aircraft and associated engines is in hand. All airline options due for renewal have been extended.

Mr. Sheldon: Does the right hon Gentleman mean that the go-ahead has been given? Will he give the latest estimate of the development costs and the total amount of money spent by the Government at this stage? Will he also say when he expects the options to be turned into firm orders? He said last October that they would be turned into firm orders by March or April of this year, What is the position now?

Mr. Corfield: As far as production is concerned, I have nothing to add to what I have previously told the House, namely, that the authorisation given some time ago for production is for the first 10 production aircraft and the purchase of long-dated materials for a further six. The total estimated costs remain, as last stated, at £885 million. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to know the precise amount spent by the Government at any particular time, perhaps he will put down a Question, and I will answer it. As far as options are concerned, I have made it clear throughout that I cannot


guarantee orders. That is a matter for the airlines. All I have been able to tell the House is my estimate that the firm will be in a position to give firm specifications to the airline, and this, I hope, they will do in the next two or three months.

Mr. Adley: Would my right hon. Friend not agree that just to say that it is a matter for the airlines is not enough? I do not think that that is true. Would he not agree that there is a lesson to be learned from the RB-211 affair—that the airlines themselves will hesitate to place firm orders unless and until there is an absolute assurance that the Government back the product?

Mr. Corfield: I think that this is a chicken-and-egg argument. It could equally well be argued that a go-ahead for the production of a lot of aircraft to sit on the tarmac would not give a very good negotiating position.

Mr. Palmer: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the political existence of his hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Adley) depends on the Minister giving rather more helpful answers to him than he is giving at the moment.

Mr. Corfield: I do not accept that. One has a dual responsibility here, both for the aircraft industry and for the taxpayer.

Sir R. Cary: Is there any chance of Concorde visiting Manchester Airport, as the runway has been extended?

Mr. Corfield: I have no plan for an exhibition of that sort at the moment.

Mr. Hugh Jenkins: How can the right hon. Gentleman give comfort to those who would like to see Concorde go into full production, because the facts simply do not justify any such comfort being given? Would the right hon. Gentleman confirm that reports recently in the Press suggesting that leaks from the Prime Minister's think tank put a favourable recommendation forward about Concorde in fact emanate from the public relations division of the British Aircraft Corporation?

Mr. Corfield: I do not accept the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supple-

mentary, but the fact is that this is a very expensive aircraft, and it would be foolish and rash not to consider the market before making any statement. As far as the think tank is concerned, it is a matter for them and not for me.

Mr. Benn: Can the Minister tell us when the next Ministerial meeting will be held and when he expects to be able to give the go-ahead for the 10 orders for production, which has some bearing on the credibility of the project from the point of view of airline orders?

Mr. Corfield: I am in discussion with M. Chamant at the moment and the next meeting will probably be in November or, anyway, before the end of the year. As for the other part of the question, that will be discussed at that time, I have no doubt.

Mr. Hugh Jenkins: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what plans he now has for the future of Concorde, in view of the fact that the cost of producing 250 in ten years has been estimated at £21·2 million per aircraft and the selling price at no higher than £12 million per aircraft.

Mr. Corfield: The estimated costs of production quoted by the hon. Member are entirely incorrect. There is no intention to sell Concorde at a price which would result in a loss on production costs: no price has been fixed.

Mr. Jenkins: If the Minister thinks the figures I have quoted are incorrect, would he be kind enough to substitute his own figures so that we may know what the facts are?

Mr. Corfield: No, Sir.

Mr. Jenkins: Why not?

Mr. Wilkinson: If the price to the airlines is somewhat higher than the airlines would like to pay, would the Minister consider some form of leasing facility or financial arrangement to enable British and French airlines to get Concorde into service quickly?

Mr. Corfield: I have made it clear that I am prepared to consider any suggestions of that sort, but to announce prices now—even if I knew what they were going to be—would not be in the interests of the Concorde project.

Mr. Benn: A short time ago the Minister said he was awaiting orders from airlines. How can he do this if the airlines do not know the price they will have to pay? When will the Government give a price?

Mr. Corfield: The right hon. Gentleman either misheard me or misinterpreted what I said. I made it quite clear that I hoped that within two or three months the necessary firm specification, including price, would be available.

Rolls-Royce Limited

Mr. Rost: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he can now state the price paid by Rolls-Royce (1971) Limited for the assets of Rolls-Royce Limited, and the basis upon which a price was reached.

Mr. Corfield: No, Sir. Negotiations on the price payable are still at an early stage.

Mr. Rost: As Rolls-Royce is continuing in business, through its new company, with the eventual probability of overall profitability, would the Minister not agree that the most valuable asset taken over by the Government in the new company is the goodwill in terms of the work force, in terms of the price of research and development and in terms of the technological team, and would he confirm that adequate compensation will be paid for this goodwill so that shareholders and creditors may at least be reassured that they will not have their assets expropriated?

Mr. Garfield: I do not think I can add to the Answer given to my hon. Friend on a previous occasion when he asked precisely that question. The basis of valuation must be the assessment of profitability, which will contain an element for goodwill.

Mr. Bishop: Is the Minister aware that one of the assets of Rolls-Royce (1971) Limited is the subsidiary dealing with carbon fibres? The Minister, in reply to my Question last week, was unable to give an assurance that this subsidiary would not be sold to an overseas buyer. Will the Minister assure the House that this would be done only in the best interests of the firm and,

secondly, would the assets of Rolls-Royce (1971) be helped by the income from the sale of the subsidiary?

Mr. Corfield: In reply to the first part of the supplementary question, if an offer from an overseas firm were to be made, this would be considered in the usual way by the Treasury and my right hon. Friend. The sale price would go to swell the assets in the hands of the receiver and the liquidator.

Mr. Emery: Does my right hon. Friend recall that he gave me and the House certain assurances that he and the Government did not wish to keep Rolls-Royce in the public sector for longer than was necessary? Will he tell the House what plans he has made for ensuring that this assurance is honoured?

Mr. Corfield: My concern is to make Rolls-Royce (1971) Limited as potentially profitable as possible. This is crucial to the answer to my hon. Friend's question.

Mr. Dalyell: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement on the position of the Rolls-Royce sub-contractors, in the light of Government decisions affecting Rolls-Royce and Lockheed.

Mr. Corfield: Now that the future of the RB-211 has been resolved, Rolls-Royce sub-contractors have the prospect of continued business with Rolls-Royce (1971) Ltd. on this project for several years ahead. Continuation of the project has also, of course, significantly improved sub-contractors' dividend expectations in the liquidation of the old company.

Mr. Dalyell: So that prospects may be improved, do we have any assurance that there will be a higher degree of candour between Rolls-Royce (1971) and subcontractors than there was in the last setup when there was very great confusion caused, for example, by the degree of stocktaking and stock holding by the old company in relation to manufacture by sub-contractors?

Mr. Corfield: I find it difficult to see the relevance of those remarks to the Question on the Order Paper. But there can be no question of any lack of candour, and I am sure that it does not exist on behalf of Rolls-Royce (1971) Limited so


as in any way to affect the dividend payable to the creditors.

Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Does my right hon. Friend not agree that the development of the stretched RB-211 will have a great effect on sub-contractors? Will he look at the question again in view of his previous answers to supplementary questions?

Mr. Corfield: I must look at this matter in relation to the market for a stretched RB-211 and to the ability of Lockheed to produce such an aircraft. Then it would be right that I should look at Rolls-Royce's part in it.

European Aerospace Industry

Mr. Carter: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement on the discussions he has had concerning the formation of a European aerospace policy and industry.

Mr. John Davies: I look forward to increasing co-operation with Europe and have had informal discussions to this end. More formal discussions will have to await the outcome of studies now in progress.

Mr. Carter: Is the Secretary of State aware that the case for a truly European aerospace industry is overwhelming, and that any attempt to sell the industry short, as in the disgraceful terms recently negotiated in the nuclear field, would merely result in a lessening of support? What negotiations have gone on with the E.E.C. on the aerospace industry?

Mr. Davies: First, there are the widespread discussions that automatically take place on Community projects, where there is community of action between British and Continental interests. That already creates a very wide field. In addition, informal discussions between Ministers have taken place. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Aerospace and I have had such informal discussions, which we shall pursue; but the matter requires deep study.

Mr. Wilkinson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the French are entering into a collaborative programme with the Americans for a medium-thrust turbofan? In these circumstances, it is imperative for us to be in collaboration with

the Europeans on air frames suitable for European engine collaborative programmes as well, and the two must go together. Is that my right hon. Friend's view?

Mr. Davies: I am very conscious of my hon. Friend's point that it would be wrong to imagine that collaboration on air frames can be pursued entirely to the exclusion of collaboration on aero engines. That is very well realised.

Mr. Mason: Will the Secretary of State tell the House why the Marshall Committee was established, what are its terms of reference and whether the House can expect a report? Secondly, is this Committee covering some of the ground that should be covered by the Transport Aircraft Requirements Committee?

Mr. Davies: The Marshall Committee is an internal Governmental Committee and, as such, normally speaking, neither its terms of reference nor its report are disclosed. Whether I shall make a statement when I have the result of its work to hand remains to be seen, but I will consider that suggestion sympathetically.

Electricity Industry (Superannuation Funds)

Mr. Palmer: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will order an inquiry into the circumstances under which the superannuation funds of the electricity boards and the Electricity Council were invested in a company, the name of which has been sent to him, which has subsequently suffered considerable losses and has been reconstituted.

Sir J. Eden: No, Sir. Under the schemes' rules funds may be invested by the Committee of the Superannuation Schemes in defined categories of investments. The investment in the company concerned fell within the limitations imposed.

Mr. Palmer: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that the placing by a nationalised industry of pension funds belonging partly to contributors in Spey Investments has caused a great deal of alarm among members of the staff pension fund in the electricity supply industry, and does not this merit an investigation by the Minister?

Sir J. Eden: Under the rules of the pension schemes, funds are invested at


the discretion of the management committees in authorised securities. These rules define authorised securities only in broad categories. No attempt is made to stipulate investment in particular companies, and I have no evidence which would justify an investigation such as the hon. Gentleman suggests.

Dame Irene Ward: Will my hon. Friend tell me whether the Central Electricity Generating Board has paid the last round of increases to its superannuitants, since British Railways have not? Will my hon. Friend make an inquiry and let me know, because I mind terribly about these superannuitants in nationalised industries getting their increases?

Sir J. Eden: That is another question, but I have noted that my hon. Friend has put it.

Crash-protected Flight Recorders

Mr. Tebbit: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will now require that the crash-protected flight recorders, which he already requires to be carried on turbine-engined transport aircraft of more than 12,500 lb. and piston-engined transport aircraft of more than 60,000 lb., should be serviceable on all flights.

The Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Anthony Grant): The relevant maintenance and inspection procedures have been reviewed by the Air Registration Board but insistence on serviceability of the equipment on all flights would cause delays and consequent inconvenience to the travelling public without any commensurate gain in safety. I am however reviewing the matter to see whether the existing relaxation can be reduced.

Mr. Tebbit: Is my hon. Friend aware that, drawing from my experience and that of many others in the industry, I can assure him that these devices are frequently unserviceable? There need be no cause for delay if operators duplicated such devices, and this would be a small price to pay in cost or inconvenience to passengers for vastly increased safety.

Mr. Grant: I appreciate my hon. Friend's great expertise on this subject. He is speaking of the ideal situation which we should all like to achieve. We

are at present formulating proposals for new requirements for future flight recorders, based on the advice of a working group which is representative of all sections of the industry, including pilots.

Mr. Mason: What time delay would there be if they were regularly serviced?

Mr. Grant: I cannot give the exact time delay without notice, but I am advised that there would be substantial delay without commensurate advantages in safety.

Central Electricity Generating Board (Financial Target)

Mr. Thomas Cox: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will review the financial target of the Central Electricity Generating Board.

Sir J. Eden: The C.E.G.B. cannot be considered in isolation and it is too early to say what may need to be done about the electricity industry's financial objectives.

Mr. Cox: In view of the importance of the wage negotiation now taking place in the industry, will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the claim which is being made will be judged on its merits, and that the negotiation will not be subjected to Government interference as the last one was?

Sir J. Eden: I am sure that the electricity industry, in the negotiations it is about to undertake, will take account of the views expressed by the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Emery: Will my hon. Friend make it clear to the House that the financial target and the return on capital which the Government set for nationalised industries will be maintained and not pushed to one side for any purpose, however justified it may be?

Sir J. Eden: We have to take account of the fact that the C.E.G.B. bulk supply tariff is subject to guidelines on price restraint.

Mr. David Stoddart: Are not these targets somewhat phoney, in that they are often levied on assets which have been written off a long time ago? Is not the electricity industry worse off than, for


example, the gas industry, and is this not having an adverse effect not only on the wages paid in the electricity industry but on the charges made to the consumer? Will the Minister urgently consider this?

Sir J. Eden: As I think the hon. Gentleman knows, the 7 per cent. objective was set by the previous Administration for the electricity supply industry as a whole. This is an objective of a return of 7 per cent. after depreciation on average net assets during the five-year period ending March, 1974.

Government Advance Factories (South Yorkshire)

Mr Wainwright: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry how many Government advance factories have been completed, are now being built, and are in the planning stage, respectively, in the South Yorkshire intermediate area; and whether he will make a statement on future policy.

Mr. Anthony Grant: Two advance factories are under construction, one of which should be finished in February and the other in May next year. Work on a third is about to start and on a fourth will begin early in the new year. The needs of South Yorkshire will be borne in mind when further advance factory building is considered.

Mr. Wainwright: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the delay in building these factories has further aggravated the unemployment situation in South Yorkshire? Is he further aware that in Mexborough and district unemployment is now running at 7·4 per cent? When will he and his right hon. Friend come off their pedestal of inertia and get something done? Is he not aware there is a great demand in South Yorkshire for the intermediate area to be scheduled as a development district and for the Yorkshire and Humberside region to be made an intermediate area?

Mr. Grant: On the first point, I am not aware that the delay has contributed to unemployment in the hon. Gentleman's area. Of course, I regret any unemployment there. The important thing is to get industry into the factories rather than just to build them. On the question of status, we have to look at the country as a whole.

We keep the hon. Gentleman's area, as all other areas and their status, under very careful review, but we cannot keep chopping and changing all the time.

Mr. Osborn: Would my hon. Friend state the extent to which these factories are being used, and will he say whether he feels that the area has been able to substantiate a demand for the factories once they are set up?

Mr. Grant: I am not certain that I understand what my hon. Friend is asking, but the policy we are suggesting is to build new factories as and when there is a demand and to avoid as much as possible having factories lying idle.

Mr. Varley: The hon. Gentleman has not said anything about future policy. Is he saying that in the foreseeable future he has no intention of announcing another advance factory building programme? Is he further aware that the last programme was introduced by the Labour Government in the spring of 1970? Does he not think it time for a further advance factory building programme to be announced—especially, if, should government predictions be right, there is a boom around the corner?

Mr. Grant: I do not agree with the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question. We certainly have not changed the policy in that respect. The needs of the area, which I was asked about, will be considered along with those of other places when another advance factory programme is planned.

Sales Promotion (Gifts of Minimal Value)

Mr. Clinton Davis: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry why he will not introduce legislation to prevents gifts of minimal value, but which are attractive to children, being advertised so as to promote the sales of certain brands of expensive essential goods, such as shoes.

Sir J. Eden: Matters of this kind are best left to the common sense and judgment of parents.

Mr. Davis: When it comes to items involving considerable expenditure for ordinary families, such as ill-fitting shoes, which might involve hazards to health, does the Minister not consider this to be


advertising and sales propaganda of the most dubious character which should be deplored by the Government instead of being accepted by them?

Sir J. Eden: No, Sir. The advertising industry has its own code of practice which is designed to safeguard children against practices which are likely to injure them in any way and to ensure that advertising and advertising gimmicks, are legal, decent, honest and truthful.

Heathrow (Air Traffic Control)

Mr. Bishop: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he is aware of the concern regarding the need for improved air traffic control arrangements at Heathrow; and what proposals he has for such improvements.

Mr. Anthony Grant: I am not aware of any specific cause for concern. Air traffic control at Heathrow has a high reputation internationally and it has handled satisfactorily a considerable volume of traffic this summer. The services and procedures are continually reviewed for further improvements.

Mr. Bishop: Is the Minister aware that the good safety record at Heathrow and elsewhere is due to the technical strain carried by those responsible? Is he also aware that increasing use of Heathrow, especially as a result of Government policy, will make this matter much more urgent? Will he get on with the job of implementing the Linesman Mediator and other technical devices which may help?

Mr. Grant: I agree that the success at London Airport is due to the skill of the staff. As for Mediator, this is a system concerned with the control of progress en route; it has a comparatively minor effect on aerodrome air traffic services. So far as the future is concerned, the services are constantly under review. There are a great number of planned improvements and projects for Heathrow which no doubt will please the hon. Gentleman. I will give the hon. Gentleman details if he wishes.

Mr. Tebbit: While my hon. Friend is looking into that matter, would he also consider the effect of hotel building around the airport on the status of the instrument landing systems, which are being degraded to the point where it is

almost a waste of money for operators there to carry the expensive aircraft equipment to enable low minima landings or optimum landings to be carried out?

Mr. Grant: I have no specific evidence on that matter, but my hon. Friend has raised a serious point and I shall see that it is carefully looked into.

Mr. Molloy: Notwithstanding the excellence and efficiency of the staff in the control tower at Heathrow, is the hon. Gentleman aware that in the recent past there have been reports of very dangerous near misses, apparently because of the involvement with Northolt Airport, and that this could have had very serious effects on my constituents who live in Greenford and Northolt? Would he be prepared to issue a statement giving some assurance to the people who live in my constituency, all of whom have this problem very much in mind?

Mr. Grant: We certainly have this matter in mind. The problem of neat misses is not one which arises directly out of the Question. If the hon. Gentleman likes to nut down a Question, I can give him reassurance on that score. But we realise the importance of this matter and he need have no fear that his constituents are under any greater risk than they have been before.

Merseyside (Industrial Expansion)

Mr. Tilney: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what further plans he now has for the expansion of industry on Merseyside.

Mr. Anthony Grant: Merseyside with all its inherent advantages is well placed to benefit from the many measures we have taken to stimulate the growth of the economy.

Mr. Tilney: Is it not time that much more specific action was taken to assist an area with over 6 per cent. unemployed, such as a decision by the B.S.C. to expand the Shotton steel works or a decision by the Government to put some new departmental offices on Merseyside? When will the Government make up their minds about the multi-purpose Dee crossing, which will bring so much badly needed amenity to our part of the world?

Mr. Grant: That latter point is one for the Department of the Environment, and I have no doubt that it will take note of what my hon. Friend says. Equally, I have no doubt that the British Steel Corporation will note what my hon. Friend says about Shotton. Generally, my hon. Friend will appreciate that this Government have done more to expand the economy of the country for the benefit of Merseyside than ever before.

Mr. Heffer: Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that the last part of his answer to the supplementary question put to him by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Tilney) is utter balderdash, and that under a Conservative Government there are now 16,000 more workers unemployed on Merseyside than there were during the period in office of the Labour Government? Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that there are now 51,000 workers unemployed in the Merseyside development area, of whom 46,000 are in the Liverpool travel-to-work area? Is it not clear that the hon. Gentleman's statement is totally complacent, and that the best thing that this Government can do to help Merseyside is to resign at the earliest possible moment?

Mr. Grant: I am by no means complacent. I take very seriously the consequences to Merseyside and elsewhere of the economic policies of the previous Administration. The point that I was making was that the unemployment rate in Merseyside was consistently lower than that of the development areas as a whole. It has an especially favourable location and an absence of severe infrastructure problems compared with many other places. It is because of the position that the Government inherited that they have taken the position that I have described.

Mr. Benn: Do not the original reply and the replies in answer to further supplementary questions indicate that the Government either do not know the position or do not care? If that is the conclusion reached by the public at large, it will take more than the Government's public relation officers to put that impression right.

Mr. Grant: It is perfectly apparent that the Government both know and care.

Electricity Charges (Old-Age Pensioners)

Mr. Dormand: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will give a general direction to the electricity boards to exempt old-age pensioners from payment of the minimum quarterly charge made by the boards.

Sir J. Eden: No, Sir. Area electricity boards tariffs are the responsibility of the boards in consultation with their consultative councils and the Electricity Council.

Mr. Dormand: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that is a very unsatisfactory reply and one which is typical of the meanness of this Government? Is he further aware that many old people experience great hardship in paying minimum quarterly charges of this kind, especially those who are deliberately sparing in their use of electricity? Is he aware, finally, of the anomalous position which is created, and which destroys the Government's argument, when some boards make the minimum charge while others do not?

Sir J. Eden: The hon. Gentleman overlooks the fact that boards are required by statute not to show undue preference to any class of consumer. The problem of pensioners is one for the level of pensions themselves. As the hon. Gentleman knows, pensions were increased in September of this year.

Dame Irene Ward: But is my hon. Friend aware that his replies are very unsatisfactory, in view of the fact that the electricity suppliers intend to put up their prices, which will result in the very old and the infirm being unable to get sufficient heating? If my hon. Friend cannot do anything under the statute, would he like me to introduce a Private Member's Bill so that we can help the old in this connection, because the situation is absolutely disastrous?

Sir J. Eden: I understand what my hon. Friend says about the position of elderly people, especially those whose incomes are limited. The fact remains that the electricity boards have to meet their costs, and they are not allowed by statute to show undue preference to any class of consumer. I am sure that the right


way to deal with the position of pensioners is by means of the various pensions increase arrangements, and not by this means.

Mr. Blenkinsop: As the Government impose this financial requirement on the electricity and other boards, why is the Minister not prepared to state now that he is willing to bring in legislation to alter the position?

Dame Irene Ward: No, I will do that.

Sir J. Eden: It is a matter for the boards to determine how their tariffs are best designed to reflect their costs. It is a fact that seven out of the 12 boards have already introduced a minimum quarterly charge.

Computers (Imports)

Mr. Golding: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will establish a committee of inquiry into the purchase of foreign computers by British public authorities.

Mr. Corfield: No, Sir. I do not believe that would serve a useful purpose.

Mr. Golding: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, at a time when redundancies are being declared at I.C.L. in North Staffordshire, the county council is contemplating buying a non-British computer? Will the right hon. Gentleman take action to try to persuade hospitals, universities, local authorities and others which are using public funds to buy British rather than American?

Mr. Corfield: I have been at great pains, as have my right hon. and hon. Friends, to make sure that the nationalised industries, local authorities and other public bodies are aware of the general Government policy, and they are encouraged to follow it. The hon. Gentleman will know that such bodies have a considerable degree of independence. I cannot force them to do this if they do not wish to do it. However, I.B.M. manufactures to a considerable extent in this country.

Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind also the fears of the British computer industry that the M.R.C.A. project is likely to seek its computer in America, and that this possi-

bility is causing grave disquiet in many places?

Mr. Corfield: That is a matter for my right hon. and noble Friend, the Secretary of State for Defence. I will make sure that he takes note of my hon. Friend's remark.

Mr. Hugh Jenkins: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the superiority of the American computer industries is to be found only in their public relations sections? Will not he suggest to British purchasers of computers that the British computer can compete on equal terms with any American product and that they should not take too much account of the Americans' public relations effort?

Mr. Corfield: I hope that the Government's clear support for I.C.L. goes a long way to meeting what the hon. Gentleman wants.

Companies (Inefficient Management)

Mr. Cronin: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will introduce legislation to enable him to improve the management of large companies where there is, without adequate reason, continuing evidence of inefficiency, such as poor return on capital employed, failure to expand under favourable conditions for expansion, inadequate export record or reduction of production causing large-scale redundancy.

Mr. John Davies: No, Sir; we consider that management is best improved by vigorous competition.

Mr. Cronin: Bearing in mind the number of large companies which have gone into liquidation in recent years and the number which are still managed with obvious inefficiency, would not it help if the Government were in a position to intervene in good time, in the interests of the national economy?

Mr. Davies: No, Sir. I do not think that the Government would be the best party to intervene in that way. I should like to feel that every encouragement was given to shareholders to take a more active part in monitoring the performances of their own managements.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the best way of achieving the objectives outlined by the


hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Cronin) would be to reverse the bias imposed by the Labour Government in the shape of corporation withholding tax so as to encourage distribution rather than retention?

Mr. Davies: As my hon. Friend will know, the possibility of a revision of corporation tax is under review actively, and I have no doubt that it is intended to take place.

Mr. Joel Barnett: Is it fair to assume from his replies that the Minister considers the Government to be less competent than the most incompetent of all these companies going into liquidation?

Mr. Davies: No, that would not be fair.

United States (Investment Allowance)

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what representations he has made to the United States Government regarding the incompatibility of its new system of tax credits on manufacturing plant restricted to plant of United States fabrication with the rules of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade.

Mr. John Davies: I would refer my hon. Friend to the Answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Kenneth Baker) on 18th October.—[Vol. 823, c. 22–4.]

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: That is a very satisfactory answer. Will my right hon. Friend tell the House whether he has yet received a reply from the American Government to his aides-mémoire? As these tax discriminations are an outrageous breach of G.A.T.T.—even worse than those perpetrated by the last Government in this country—will he point out to the American Government that British manufacturers of capital goods would at present benefit appreciably from a decision to exclude goods of American manufacture from our own system of investment allowances?

Mr. Davies: I appreciate the point made by my hon. Friend. Indeed, as he knows, representations in the firmest terms have been made on the subject. I have had no official response as yet to those representations.
As to the benefit which could be given to this country by, in some sense, seeking a reprisal, I deplore such a development because, if such reprisals were undertaken, we might begin in serious downward spiral in international trade.

Mr. Mason: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain that he has protested not only about the tax credits and the 10 per cent. import surcharge, but about the whole protectionist package which is now causing some trade harm, is certainly causing trade reaction, and is likely to develop into a trade war?

Mr. Davies: I hope not. I hope that, with flexibility on all sides, we shall reach a satisfactory conclusion in this difficult matter. I do not believe that rather sharp comments at this stage will materially help.

Mr. Kenneth Baker: Has the Minister seen the estimate that, if these measures are continued by the American Government, unemployment in Western Europe as a whole will rise by 300,000? Will he take firmer action with Mr. Connally and make clear that British industry cannot withstand these discriminatory measures for much longer? Will he also suggest to Senator Kennedy that the text of his next speech should be the iniquitous and harmful trading policies of the American Government?

Mr. Davies: I have certain sympathy with what my hon. Friend says, but I shall restrain myself from making too barbed comments.

British Steel Corporation (Uniform Delivered Price)

Mr. Edward Taylor: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will take steps to ascertain from the European Coal and Steel Community whether it will be possible for the British Steel Community to maintain its policy of offering a uniform delivered price for steel products throughout the United Kingdom in the event of Great Britain joining that Community.

Mr. John Davies: No, Sir. The pricing rules are an intergral part of the Treaty of Paris. From the outset it has been accepted that we should conform to Community practice.

Mr. Taylor: Is my right hon. Friend aware that a system of regional pricing could cause grave damage to Scottish industry? If the British Steel Corporation decided to introduce regional pricing in this country, as we have in the gas and electricity industries, would the Minister still have the ability to put on a general direction to stop it?

Mr. Davies: No, I should not be in a position to give a general directive in this sense. My hon. Friend must appreciate that the basing points for pricing purposes within the framework of the E.C.S.C. Treaty are at the discretion of the industry itself. I do not see a situation arising in which the industry would be debarred from setting the price level it wishes for any given area of consumption.

Mr. Kaufman: Is the Minister aware that if we were to enter the E.C.S.C. he would be unable to give general directions on anything? Is he satisfied with the diminution of democracy which this abolition of his parliamentary answerability would involve?

Mr. Davies: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the use of the general direction has not been an habitual method of the Government in their relations with the industry. He will recall that the Government, as the representative of the investor—that is, the public in relation to this industry—in no way deprive themselves of all the rights and duties of the representative of that investor concerning investment and such matters in the industry. The absence of a right of general direction does not in itself constitute a severe limitation of the Government's position.

Motor Industry

Sir. G. Nabarro: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what improvement has occurred in the motor industry, export and domestic markets, respectively, since the financial measures initiated by Her Majesty's Government in July.

Mr. John Davies: The July measures were designed to stimulate domestic demand. In August and September taken together, home car registrations were some 36 per cent. above the corresponding figure for last year, compared with an increase of 6 per cent. in the period

January to July. August car exports were nearly 10 per cent. up on August 1970.

Sir G. Nabarro: While welcoming all those very satisfactory figures and the bullish atmosphere which the Minister creates by stating them this afternoon, has he not observed the paradox that, though the motor industry is evidently expanding, unemployment is consistently rising in all the principal motor manufacturing areas? In Birmingham, on Merseyside and in Central Scotland unemployment is rising while the demand for motor cars goes up. Will the Minister explain this to us?

Mr. Davies: It is common ground that a rise in consumption gives effect to an increase in manufacture only with some time lag. In fact, at the outset of any boom in consumption the first element to be drawn on is existing stocks. Therefore, the repercussion of such an improvement of consumption in terms of unemployment is normally delayed. I have frequently made reference to this matter, and I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware of the situation.

Mr. Edelman: In order to maintain the improvement which the right hon. Gentleman has mentioned, will he intervene to stop the provocative and damaging lockouts which are taking place in Coventry in answer to the legitimate protests of the engineering workers against the multilateral denunciation by the employers of the Coventry tool room agreement?

Mr. Davies: I am well aware of the views of hon. Gentlemen opposite on the decision by the Government about intervention in individual industrial relations discussions. The hon. Gentleman knows that the Government do not favour such intervention and will not actively participate in it.

Pyramid-Selling

Mr. Jay: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what investigations his Department has made into the practice of pyramid-selling, as operated by firms such as Golden Chemical Products Limited, details of which have been sent to him by the right hon. Member for Battersea, North.

Sir J. Eden: Our inquiries into the use of this practice by two companies are not yet complete.

Mr. Jay: Is the Minister aware that, though these activities may be carried on in a bona fide manner, they are open to abuse? As they have been controlled by legislation in a number of American States, does he not think that there is a case for doing the same here to protect the public?

Sir J. Eden: I think that it would be wise to proceed with the inquiry which is being conducted under Section 109 of the Companies Act, 1967. This inquiry is still at a preliminary stage. I shall be better able to take stock of the position when I have seen the outcome of that inquiry.

Lasham Airfield (Aircraft Disappearance)

Mr. Mather: asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement about the disappearance of the Piper Cub G-AYPN which took off from Lasham airfield on Saturday, 28th August, 1971.

Mr. Anthony Grant: Mr. A. J. Slade, with the approval of the Lasham Gliding Society, took off from Lasham in Piper Cub G-AYPN soon after noon on Saturday, 28th August, with one passenger, leaving no indication of where he proposed to fly. However, the aircraft was seen to turn southwards soon after takeoff. Since there was no immediate further need to use the aircraft, the fact that it had not been returned to the hangar was not confirmed until Monday, 30th August, and at that stage the Aldershot Police and the Department's Accidents Investigation Branch were informed. A number of inquiries, including an air search, have been made, but I regret to say that up to the present time no trace of the aircraft or its occupants have come to light.
I know the House will wish to join with me in expressing sympathy to the relatives of those lost on the flight.

Mr. Mather: I thank my hon. Friend for that statement and wish to associate myself with his expression of sympathy for the tragic aspects of the case. Is my hon. Friend aware that arrangements for notifying the next of kin in this case seem to have broken down? Secondly, is he aware that the plane was 43 hours overdue before that fact was discovered?

Thirdly, is he satisfied that safety regulations for light planes are all that they should be at the present time?

Mr. Grant: On the first point, my hon. Friend will appreciate that notification is the responsibility of the club, the proprietor, or the operator, as the case may be. The reporting of the plane being overdue is likewise the concern of the proprietor of the plane in this case.
On the third point, one should and must never be entirely satisfied with rules. The rules are kept under very careful review. This incident, as, indeed, other unfortunate incidents, will be taken into consideration during these reviews.

Mr. Mason: I should like to associate my right hon. and hon. Friends and myself with the sympathy which the Minister has expressed about this incident. Is it not time that the hon. Gentleman started to survey and control many of these small airports, especially because of the non-scheduled operations of small aircraft and their danger to large passenger aircraft? Would it not be right that in future they should at all times file their flight plans and have to carry radio equipment?

Mr. Grant: I should make it clear that in this case there was no danger to scheduled services because this plane was not operating in controlled air space.
As to the carriage of a radio, I would only say that over the last eight years 10 accidents have taken place involving private aircraft, including this one, that in all of them, except this one, they were carrying radio equipment. One should not assume that the carrying of radio equipment is an automatic safety device.
On the question of flight plans, I should draw attention to the fact that all those who get a pilot's certificate are required to know the United Kingdom Air Pilot publication which makes it clear that aircraft not equipped with radio are advised to file a flight plan if they intend to fly more than 10 miles off the coast, or over sparsely populated or mountainous areas. That was not done in this case.

Mr. Mason: Will the hon. Gentleman consider introducing legislation on this score, in view of the danger to passenger-carrying aircraft from non-scheduled small aircraft?

Mr. Grant: All I am prepared to say is that, as I indicated earlier, these matters are governed by rules made under the Air Navigation Order. These rules are constantly under review, and I do not think that I can say anything more now. We shall consider this incident, as we do all others, in deciding whether any change is required.

NORTHERN IRELAND

Mr. Stallard: Mr. Stallard (By Private Notice) asked the Minister of State for Defence if he is now in a position to make a statement about the death of the two women in Belfast at the weekend, shot by the Army.

The Minister of State for Defence (Lord Balniel): I have received the following report. At about 4.30 a.m. on Saturday, 23rd October, soldiers of the 3rd Battalion, The Royal Green Jackets, were engaged in search operations in Cape Street in the Lower Falls area of Belfast. A Ford saloon car was driven at speed along Cape Street. As it reached the junction of Cape Street and Ross Street the rear window was broken from inside and two shots were fired from inside the car towards soldiers in Cape Street. Three soldiers returned a total of nine rounds at the car which swerved across Ross Street into the junction with Omar Street.
By the time that the soldiers could regroup to follow up, a crowd had gathered about the car, which had crashed into a wall. When the soldiers had dispersed the crowd, they found two women shot dead in the back seat. These have been identified as Mrs. Mary Ellen Meehan and Miss Dorothy Maguire.
I understand that two other persons, Mr. William Davidson and Mrs. Florence O'Riordan, have been charged with an offence under the Explosive Substances Act (Northern Ireland) in connection with this incident and were due to appear in court today.

Mr. Stallard: Is the Minister aware that earlier reports of this incident over the official media—television, radio, and so on—attributed a statement to an Army spokesman to the effect that these women were dressed as men, that they were guerrillas, and that, as he said, shots were

fired from the van? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that photographs published since then, and statements made from the scene of this terrible tragedy, show clearly that these women were dressed in gaily coloured blouses, and that one was dressed in white slacks? In fact, they were dressed in the same style as thousands of young women in this country would dress for an ordinary evening out.

Hon. Members: With guns.

Mr. Stallard: Finally, is the Minister aware that statements made from the scene of this tragic incident show quite clearly that no shots were fired from the van? In view of the conflicting statements, will the Minister initiate an immediate and comprehensive inquiry into the whole incident?

Lord Balniel: The last point raised by the hon. Gentleman is most important. An inquiry has been held by the Special Investigation Branch of the Royal Military Police, and the military report will be available to the police if they request it.
I understand that one woman was wearing a jacket and jeans, and the other a jacket and slacks or trousers. I know that this matter has been argued in the Press, but it is irrelevant. What matters is that, according to the report, shots were fired from the car, and that was the reason for returning the fire.

Mr. George Thomson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that newspaper reports of the announcement made by the Army authorities to the Press seemed to make it clear that the Army reported the facts immediately as they found them? Nevertheless, is the Minister aware that there appears to be a conflict of evidence, some of which I gather is to be dealt with in the courts. In those circumstances, will the Minister respond positively to the request of my hon. Friend that there should be the fullest possible inquiry into all the circumstances of this tragic incident?

Lord Balniel: I shall certainly respond positively, in that there has already been an inquiry, and the military authorities will make their report available to the police. The right hon. Gentleman is correct in saying that this matter will


be coming before the courts in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Pounder: Can the Minister tell the House what period of time elapsed between the car's striking the wall and the Army being able to gather round and disperse the crowd?

Lord Balniel: I do not have the exact figure for the time that elapsed, but what was happening was that some troops were still searching the houses and it was necessary to regroup the troops. A crowd gathered, and the troops found it necessary to fire three baton rounds before they could disperse the crowd and reach the car.

Mr. Thorpe: In this tragic situation, are not we in the difficulty that, on the one hand, there is rampant terrorism, and on the other we are trying to maintain civil law without recourse to martial law? That being so, is it not important that there is in existence some permanent body which can immediately look into these grievances and report, from whatever quarter they come?
Is is not a fact that Sir Edmund Compton's inquiry is ad hoc for a specific purpose which will shortly be completed? In fairness to everyone, not least the Army, does not the Minister consider that there should be some form of impartial tribunal to whom appeals of this sort may be made?

Lord Balniel: The right hon. Gentleman referred to rampart terrorism in Northern Ireland. The disturbances over the weekend were very grave indeed. There were 54 separate incidents of shooting at troops, involving the use of automatic fire on 17 occasions. That is the greatest number during any weekend of the disturbances. The right hon. Gentleman has raised a much wider question, and we shall certainly take note of the points that he has made.

Mr. McManus: Further to the point which has been raised about a full inquiry. When it is held, will the Minister consider allowing it to inquire also into the terrible tragic shooting incident at Newry in which three men died? On this occasion, unlike the position on other occasions, there is no argument about whether these men were armed. It is clear that they were unarmed.
Will the Minister inform the House, or confirm that soldiers are not allowed to shoot unarmed civilians, except when martial law is in force? If soldiers are operating as if martial law had been imposed, why has martial law not been declared? Will the Minister get it into his head that the minority in Northern Ireland regard the shooting of the three men at Newry as murder?

Lord Balniel: The hon. Gentleman has asked me about a completely different incident which took place at the weekend. The circumstances are being investigated, but the facts as I know them are that soldiers on duty on a rooftop of a house in Newry at 11.55 p.m. on Saturday, 23rd October, saw three men attack a man who appeared to be depositing money in a night safe. After giving warning, the soldiers fired shots which killed the three attackers. Until the inquiry is complete it would be wrong for me to comment further.
As to the right of a soldier to shoot, I explained the circumstances in an earlier reply to the House in May of this year.

Mr. Mayhew: Will the Minister say what instructions have been laid down about the level of seniority at which official statements are made by the Army following incidents of this kind?

Lord Balniel: Army commanders responsible for a unit are authorised to make a statement to the Press or public media specifically concerning the incident in which they are involved. Matters of policy are referred to politicians or senior officers.

Mr. George Thomson: On the incident in Newry, has there been any change at all in the instructions given to the British Army in terms of when they may or may not fire? Is there any truth in the allegation that there is now an instruction to fire on suspicion? Would the hon. Gentleman also remind his right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, who are sitting beside him, that at the end of the day this kind of situation can be dealt with only by positive moves towards some sort of political solution?

Lord Balniel: The right hon. Gentleman raises a much wider question, involving political developments in


Northern Ireland. I can assure him that there has been no change in the basic rules made available to the troops.

Mr. McNamara: On a point of order. On Friday, Mr. Speaker, I raised with you a point of order about my having telephoned the Compton Commission in Belfast about the scope of its inquiry and having been informed that it was entitled only to look into evidence concerning men arrested on 9th August and on that date only and into no other allegations of ill-treatment or cruelty. You were kind enough to say that you would consider whether this was a point of order in view of what the Home Secretary had said.

Mr. Speaker: I have considered the point very carefully. I am satisfied that no point of order arises.

Mr. Orme: On another point of order. May I not ask you and, through you, Mr. Speaker, the Home Secretary, whether or not some clarification should be given, since, as will be seen from cols. 550 and 547 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, the Home Secretary gave a categorical answer about the Compton Commission. I feel that, in the interests of all the people concerned, we should have a statement from the Home Secretary on this matter.

Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member has made his point.

Later:—

Mr. Atkinson: Further to the earlier questions about the Home Secretary, could you tell us, Mr. Speaker, whether the Home Secretary has informed you when he will be coming to the House to make a personal statement?

Mr. Speaker: No.
As a matter of courtesy, I would add that I do not mean that I would not answer the hon. Member's question but only that I have not been told. I am afraid that my answer may have sounded a little discourteous, but that is not what I meant. I simply mean that I have not received any intimation.

COMPLAINT OF PRIVILEGE

Mr. Speaker: I have now to rule on a matter of privilege. Last Friday, the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) raised a question of privilege involving the Attorney-General. I have considered carefully the material submitted and whether these matters fall within the ambit of privilege. I now rule that privilege is not involved, and in consequence the subject cannot be given priority over the Orders of the Day. However, the hon. Member is of course entitled to raise the matter in any other parliamentary way which may be open to him. But since no matter of privilege appears to arise, the matter cannot be pursued at this time.

Mr. Arthur Lewis: I thank you for your remarks, Mr. Speaker. However, you will recollect that I raised the question not only as privilege but as a possible contempt of Parliament. With great respect, you have not mentioned the possibility of contempt, which I should have thought was the main issue to be considered.
On the question of privilege, you referred last Friday to a somewhat similar case raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) with the Committee of Privileges, but in that instance you said that there was no proof that leaks had been made or, if they had been made, that it had been done by or with the knowledge and consent of either Ministers or members of the Committee.
In this case, you will recollect, the Attorney-General has admitted in writing that it was he who was responsible for instructing his secretary to issue statements to the Press answering questions which were due on the Order Paper on the following Monday. If that is to be the position, it means that, at any time, a Minister may, in the knowledge that Questions are pending, issue Press statements answering those Questions and thus pre-empt the rights of hon. Members to ask their Questions in the House.
That, I suggest, is a contempt of Parliament. May I ask you to look at this aspect, which you have not, with great respect, touched on in your answer?

Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member is not quite correct. The phrase I used, "within the ambit of privilege", includes contempt. I have considered the matter carefully. I am not pronouncing at all on the merits of the practice, as to whether it is desirable—I am not saying that it happened in this case—that a Minister should announce publicly beforehand what his answer will be. But I am satisfied that no question of privilege is involved. It is a matter of parliamentary practice. The hon. Member can pursue it in other ways, but it does not, I am satisfied and I so rule, come within the ambit of privilege, which includes contempt.

Mr. Arthur Lewis: May I again thank you, Mr. Speaker? In view of what you have said, with your kind help and assistance, I will raise the issue on Wednesday evening during the Adjournment debate which you have kindly allocated to me. I will then deal with this subject.

Orders of the Day — EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES

Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [21st October]:
That this House approves Her Majesty's Government's decision of principle to join the European Communities on the basis of the arrangements which have been negotiated.—[Sir Alec Douglas-Home.]

Question again proposed.

Mr. Raphael Tuck: On a point of order. Last Thursday, Mr. Speaker, you drew attention to the fact that many hon. Members wished to speak, and you asked hon. Members to keep their speeches short. If an hon. Member dilates or makes a lengthy speech, it shows complete lack of consideration for other hon. Members. Would it, therefore, be possible for you to request hon. Members to limit their speeches on this subject to 30 minutes for Front Bench speakers and 15 minutes for back benchers, give or take a couple of minutes?

Mr. Speaker: The Chair has no power to impose such a time limit, whatever sympathy it may have with the idea. I must tell the House that I feel rather like Sisyphus: I have been pushing the stone uphill and getting nowhere at all. More hon. Members still want to speak than at the beginning of the debate.

3.47 p.m.

Mr. Norman Fowler: When the House adjourned on Friday, I had been speaking for five minutes in what was intended to be one of the shortest speeches in the Common Market debate. Although it is very encouraging to see how the House has now filled up since the start of my speech, I will keep to that intention.
For anyone who may have missed the start, the story so far is this. I ended by asking: if hon. Members opposite thought that the terms negotiated in Brussels were not good enough, what terms would they have considered acceptable? My hon. Friends may consider it symbolic that that question was followed by an extended period of silence of 72 hours.
But the real pity in the extended argument over the terms is that it sometimes


excludes questions and arguments over other issues which are also important. I suggest that it is also important to decide not only whether we are satisfied with a Britain which economically lags behind our European neighbours, but also whether we are satisfied with the kind of rôle which Britain may now play in the world, whether we are satisfied to rely on another country, the United States, to shoulder much of the European defence burden and, also important, whether we are satisfied with the kind of contribution which we are making towards the developing nations. On all these counts, there is precious little to give us satisfaction.
To deal with just one part, our rôle in the world, it is tempting to withdraw from any rôle at all, to mutter a prayer of thanks for being British and try to pretend that what happens in the rest of the world does not concern us. But I do not think this is either in our national interests or supported by our national experience.
In seeking a rôle we are not asking for some kind of return to empire. This is, first of all, a recognition that events will take place in a world and in a Europe over which we will want to have some influence. At present, the real decisions affecting the world and Europe are taken by the United States and Russia. Of course it is true that, as a medium-sized power, we have some influence, but even that influence is likely to decrease as the years go on.
Whether or not we join the E.E.C., the Common Market will develop, as will its influence. The development and influence of the Community now is, of course, mainly economic, but politically it has the opportunity of great influence throughout the world, including by association agreements with the developing nations.
The overriding case in favour of entry is that it is a natural development. Europe shares common interests and problems. We in Britain share the same interests and problems. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Consider, for example, defence. There is the obvious point—this needs no great power of prediction—that Europe will have to play a much greater part in its own defence in the years to come because America will not continue meeting

such a substantial bill for the cost of the defence of Europe.
In side the Common Market we shall have the opportunity to make Europe's influence a real power in the world, and particularly a real power for peace. If we stay out, we shall continue as a medium-sized nation with no enormous economic power and with little influence over what is happening in the rest of the world. If we go in, we shall certainly help ourselves economically but also be able to help in the development of the rest of the world.
It is better to pool our resources and combine with our friends in Europe and have a world rôle than stay out and have no rôle at all. I will vote, not with reluctance but with enthusiasm, for our entry into the E.E.C.

3.52 p.m.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Geoffrey Rippon): I am glad to speak following my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, South (Mr. Fowler), who, as the House will agree, made a thoughtful speech both today and on Friday, concentrating on some of the more fundamental themes that must determine the course of the debate.
We have been discussing whether or not Britain should join the European Communities for over a decade, and I do not propose this afternoon to attempt to analyse the ebb and flow of events or speeches over the years.
We all recognise that there are right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House who, for various reasons, have been opposed in principle from the outset. There are, however, others—I suggest the manifest majority—who have desired our successful application if satisfactory terms could be negotiated.
I start, therefore, fully recognising that what whatever views anyone may have held or expressed in the past, it is perfectly legitimate to express dissatisfaction with the terms which have been negotiated.
I accept that there are now on the benches opposite right hon. and hon. Members who were associated with our application to join—who must be presumed to have acted in good faith when applying—who still want to join but are now saying, "Not on Tory terms." It


surely follows from that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, South pointed out on Friday, that one must show some fundamental conditions or terms which can be changed or have been inadequately negotiated; and here I am well aware of my responsibilities as a negotiator, primarily to the Government but also to this House and, through this House, to the nation at large.
For my part, I have endeavoured in the last year or so not merely to make regular statements on the progress achieved but also to sense, and be guided by, expressions of feeling in this House about the relative importance of particular issues. If I judge correctly, the House has throughout shown a special concern for the effect of our entry on our responsibilities towards others, and notably, of course, toward the Commonwealth.
It is significant in this connection that at the end of the negotiations no less an authority than Mr. Arnold Smith, Secretary-General of the Commonwealth Secretariat, felt able to say, as he did in July, that our membership of the Community would make the Commonwealth more, rather than less, important, both to the members of the Commonwealth itself and to the enlarged Community.
On the most sensitive issues—New Zealand dairy products and sugar from the developing Commonwealth—we have negotiated terms which have satisfied the Governments of those countries, the New Zealand Dairy Board and the Commonwealth sugar exporters.
I will not cover the ground dealt with in the White Paper and discussed in our debate in July. What Sir Keith Holyoake and Mr. Marshall have said about the terms for New Zealand is on the record. The only reservation—a perfectly natural one, from their point of view—relates to the pricing formula which we have agreed with the Community. Looking at the terms as a whole, Mr. Muldoon, the New Zealand Finance Minister, has said:
On balance, we think we have got a good deal.
He has also said:
I believe Britain should go into the Common Market. I believe it will be in the best interest of the British people and of the British economy that they should join the Common Market because they will be streng-

thened. And come what may, our trade ties will remain, so that a stronger Britain means a stronger New Zealand.
I should, perhaps, deal in passing with a reference made on the first day of the debate by my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Sir Robin Turton)—

Mr. William Molloy: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is obviously about to leave the subject of New Zealand. Would he agree that to give a full picture of the situation he should state the views of the official Opposition in New Zealand which, before long, will very likely be the Government in that country and which, therefore, are entitled to have their views made clear so that we may know what all New Zealand is thinking? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman therefore state the case as put by Mr. Norman Kirk on behalf of New Zealand's official Opposition?

Mr. Rippon: I can state something Mr. Kirk said, as reported in The Dominion of 9th October. Pointing out that, in his view, if Britain entered the E.E.C. the price paid for New Zealand butter would drop sharply on 1st January, 1973, he said:
if butter stays at £500 a ton until December 31st 1972, itself an optimistic assumption, the price New Zealand will get under the averaging process of the Luxembourg Agreement will be about £384 a ton. Thus, if it remains at £500 a ton until British entry, the price of butter on entry will drop by £116 or 23·2 per cent.
There is anxiety in New Zealand about that aspect of the matter. On the other hand, Mr. Marshall has said:
It is foolish to suggest that we shall lose heavily in our export income. In fact, we shall be better off because the average price has been so high in recent months.
I was about to say that I must deal in passing with the reference made on the first day of the debate by my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton to a telegram from New Zealand ex-Service men which, he claimed, had been supressed. In fact, I understand that a telegram was circulated by the Commonwealth Industries Association to hon. Members, and I have now had an opportunity to make some inquiries about it.
As a result, we have been in touch with the President of the New Zealand


Returned Services Association, Sir Hamilton Mitchell, who has informed the British High Commissioner in Wellington that the action of Mr. Reed, of the Auckland branch, in cabling direct to Mr. Edward Holloway, the Director of the Commonwealth Industries Association, was taken without prior consultation with the Dominion Council—that is, the central body of the R.S.A.—and, therefore, cannot be said to have the full support of the Dominion Council.
As for the allegation of suppression, Sir Hamilton told the High Commissioner he considered that the Dominion Council had discharged its obligation under the original resolution by bringing the matter to the attention of the British Commonwealth Ex-Services League, where it has been dealt with and fully considered. The Dominion Executive Committee of the New Zealand R.S.A. had, thereupon, decided that no further action should be taken in the matter.
Sir Hamilton made it clear to the British High Commissioner that Mr. Reed could speak only for the Auckland branch, which had some 6,200 members, and not for the 90,000 or so members affiliated to the New Zealand R.S.A. The Dominion Council did not associate itself with Mr. Reed's action, and that should be clearly on the record.
Turning back to sugar, for the developing sugar producer countries of the Commonwealth the terms we have negotiated constitute a firm assurance of a secure and continuing market for sugar for all the developing countries which are signatories of the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement. That is not just my view; it is the view of the Governments of the countries concerned, which have expressed their satisfaction, and of the representatives of the Commonwealth Sugar Exporters' Group and the West India Committee.

Mr. Russell Kerr: What about Sunday's Observer?

Mr. Eric S. Heffer: The article was not written by Nora Beloff; she always get things wrong.

Mr. Rippon: I have seen that. I am afraid that it has the history wrong; but, more important, it has the figures wrong as well. [HON. MEMBERS: "Tell us how."] All right, I will. The figures which Frances Cairncross gave of con-

sumption within the Community show a deficit of just over half a million tons. Our figures show a deficit of over one million tons, and those figures do not take account of increased consumption in the Community. The article assumes no exports by the Community and no use of sugar for animal feed. I am afraid that it is not something which the House can rely on.

Mr. Fred Peart: What about "bankable assurances"?

Mr. Rippon: The right hon. Gentleman intervenes, "What about bankable assurances?" The important thing is that the Commonwealth Governments are satisfied with the position. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wembley, South (Sir R. Russell) asked whether it was our intention to cut Australia out of our sugar market. Australian exports of its negotiated price quotas under our Commonwealth Sugar Agreement are fully safeguarded to the end of 1974. We have agreed with the Community that the enlarged Community would be ready to take prompt and effective action to remedy any difficulties arising out of transitional arrangements for agriculture, and horticulture or any threat of abrupt dislocation of Commonwealth and third country suppliers. This Agreement clearly would apply to Australian sugar and other agricultural commodities. It was with Australia very much in mind that we negotiated this text, and at the appropriate time, as I have indicated in the House before, we shall be considering the next steps with the Australians on the one hand and with the Community on the other.
Another point made by my hon. Friend was whether we should be forced to resign from the International Sugar Agreement. By the time it comes to be renegotiated in 1973 it is possible that the Community will be a member itself. But, in any event, we shall have to shape a new international sugar agreement appropriate to the circumstances which lie ahead. The Community has shown itself very willing, as in the case of dairy products, to think in terms of international commodity agreements. It is in this way that we can best safeguard the primary producers of the world.
As for the other arrangements for the Commonwealth—the offer of association


agreements, and the special provisions for a wide range of industrial materials—these have been universally welcomed.
Those hon. Members who accept the principle of membership of the Community, as distinct from those who do not want to join at any price, can hardly say that we should stay out because we cannot provide Commonwealth interests with better terms than they have accepted.
Some hon. Members who have spoken in the debate, such as the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor), have expressed concern about the whole future of the Commonwealth with the United Kingdom within the Community. I think that their fears stem from a mistaken conception of the Community as inward-looking and protectionist. I do not believe that that is the fact.
The truth is that the Community is in the forefront of the developed nations in its record of trade with and aid to the developing world. After all, the Community's common external tariff is, on the whole, lower than ours, or, for that matter, that of the United States.
The European Economic Communities provide more in aid and investment in the developing countries than any other donor. Expressed as a percentage of gross national product, in 1969 the Community provided twice as much development aid and investment as did the United States. Against that background, I foresee that in the future Britain's developing Commonwealth partners which stand most in need of it—we do not dispute this—would have continuing relationships not only with us but also with our prosperous European partners, for both trade and aid, including investment. I believe that this relationship would permit a substantial diversification of their export markets and a substantial increase in their trade prospects.
We have also to protect the position of our partners in E.F.T.A. As the House will know, three members of E.F.T.A. are seeking full membership, and the rest are holding talks with the Community about the most appropriate form of relationship for them. Here, again, the House must take note of the general satisfaction that is expressed in E.F.T.A. about the way that things are going. In the words of the E.F.T.A. Annual Report for 1970–71, issued this September:

The year closed in a mood of confidence as the prospect of achieving wider European integration seemed brighter.
Enlargement should bring about a more rational and effective economic framework for Western Europe which is entirely in line with the aims of the Stockholm Treaty.
One major aspect of the negotiations still to be settled is fisheries. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture dealt at some length on Thursday with the position on fishing limits. My hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall) has, however, asked me to confirm what was meant in our original proposal by the extension of historic rights to Community countries between six and 12 miles. As my hon. Friend will appreciate, we have been talking all the time about limits drawn from the 1964 base lines and subject to our full jurisdiction up to the 12-mile limit. As the House also knows, the existing members of the Community already have between them extensive rights in our own six to 12-mile zone. Our proposal, therefore, was that the Community principle of free access for member States without discrimination should apply to the waters of all existing and new members between six and 12 miles. But, in the event, our proposal did not seem to find favour.
What we have now proposed is that, in the absence of a new regulation satisfactory to all parties, we should agree to maintain the status quo, which for us means the existing state of affairs, until agreement could be reached after enlargement on what changes were needed and, most important, were acceptable to all concerned—I repeat, to all concerned.
For its part, the Community has accepted that the present fisheries policy needs changes, and it has formally acknowledged that a new policy must establish an overall balance of advantage that takes account of the legitimate interests of all member countries. I assure my hon. Friend and all hon. Members who are deeply concerned about this matter that we will not agree to any arrangements that do not satisfactorily protect our legitimate interests.

Mr. Edward Milne: Why has the right hon. and learned Gentleman already agreed to reduce the 12-mile limit to six miles, as a negotiating point, if


negotiations are still to continue on the question of the status quo?

Mr. Rippon: We have not agreed that at all. We have put forward initial proposals. In the negotiations there is a good deal of to-ing and fro-ing. As has been said, there comes a point when one changes the game from chess to poker. We are now in the middle of these negotiations. We are determined to protect our legitimate rights.

Mr. J. Bruce-Gardyne: Can my right hon. and learned Friend make this clear to the House? To ensure that ratification takes place in due time, by 1st January, 1973, the Treaty of Accession would have to be agreed by the end of this year. What happens if there is not agreement in Brussels by the end of this year either on the maintenance of the status quo on fishing or on the proposals which my right hon. and learned Friend has put forward?

Mr. Rippon: That would be a difficult situation. But I assure my hon. Friend that the Community has agreed to discuss this matter in depth. We are to have another meeting on 9th November, after which I will report progress, and then we can face this hypothetical question if we have to.
There is a clear understanding that we must do one of two things. Either we must have an agreement on a new regulation which is satisfactory to all the members—that is all the applicants as well as the existing members of the Community—or, if we cannot achieve that, we have suggested that the Community will have to accept that we must maintain the status quo. If we do that, any question of a negotiation after enlargement would again be dependent, if the status quo was to be changed, on agreement by all the parties concerned.
The other major aspect of the negotiations concerned our contribution to the Community budget. A number of hon. Members, including the right hon. Members for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) and for Stepney (Mr. Shore), have raised this issue and the whole question of the likely burden on the balance of payments.
In our debate on the White Paper on 21st July I went into this matter again in some detail. My purpose in the negotia-

tions was to settle what paragraph 43 of the 1970 White Paper described as
the transitional arrangements under which we approach paying our full share of the recently agreed Community financing arrangements".
That indeed was the only negotiable issue. I believe that the terms that we have agreed ensure that there will be no sudden or unbearable burden on our balance of payments before we have the full advantage of the dynamic effects of entry.

Mr. Peter Shore: This is a very important matter. I invite the right hon. and learned Gentleman's comments on two points. First, there is no question that his predecessors accepted—they did not—the arrangements of the Six for financing their agricultural policy, because they were agreed among themselves only in April, 1970.
Second, in the Government's estimate how much would Britain have to pay to the Six at the end of the transitional period and how much under each of the three taxes—the value-added tax, the food levies and the Customs duties—would we have to pay across the balance of payments as from 1978?

Mr. Rippon: The right hon. Gentleman has not let me get very far in my argument. I have to deal with the broader issue. The negotiating position is clearly set out in paragraph 43 of the February, 1970, White Paper. I have quoted it correctly. On 21st July, the right hon. Gentleman referred me to the end of paragraph 44, which states: "They"—that is, the Community—
have reached agreement in principle on arrangements for meeting the cost, but their application in a reasonable and equitable way to our situation must be a matter for negotiation, as has always been recognised.
Indeed, that was the matter for negotiation—the steps by which we moved up towards the payment of our full contribution. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Yes, it was.

Mr. Denis Healey: The right hon. and learned Gentleman will recall his delegation presenting to the Commission in July last year—that is when the Chancellor of the Exchequer was still responsible for negotiation—a paper pointing out that the application of the financial regulations would mean that Britain would be paying four times


as much net to the Community budget as Germany, which has a 50 per cent. higher gross national product. At that time there was no indication that Her Majesty's Government accepted this implication. Indeed, the whole purpose of the paper was to reject it. We on this side want to know what made the Government change their minds so that six months later they were prepared to argue only about the phasing of the rise to such a monstrously unfair contribution.

Mr. Rippon: The negotiation was about the steps by which we would rise to the full amount. The purpose of the negotiation to which the right hon. Gentleman refers—he purports to quote from confidential negotiating documents—was to explain to the Community the view we had always held that it was important that we should have an opportunity to make a reasonable transition, as the 1970 White Paper said, to the full payment that would be required.
There has been a discussion about what that full payment was. I gave certain estimates at about the time of the negotiations. As I said, the Community was likely to say that they were too fair and too reasonable. That is what the Community did say. That is what negotiations are all about. We had a good deal of discussion about the size and shape of the budget in future. The Community said that we had exaggerated the likely growth of the budget, that we had minimised the receipts, and that we had underestimated the benefits.
I appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman has criticised us for not providing in the White Paper an overall balance sheet of costs and benefits. What the White Paper does is to give the balance of payment costs as clearly as it can on the two elements out of three which can be predicted with any degree of accuracy—that is, our net budgetary contribution, which we think is likely to rise from £100 million in 1973 to about £200 million in 1977; the figure for food imports, which we think are likely to cost £5 million in the first year rising to £50 million in the fifth year; and then the element omitted is what are called the trade effects.
Everyone from the other side has said that these figures are highly speculative. To have presented a precise balance sheet

would have given a totally false impression, not only that the economic consequences of our entry could be predicted in detail over a period of up to 10 years or more, into the future, but also that similar estimates could have been produced of the consequences of our staying outside the Community.
Many people, when considering my statement of 16th December, look at what I said about the possible debit at that time on the figures which had been bandied about for a good period of time. We have now quantified one of the elements—the food element more precisely than we could do then. What must also be quantified, and what I said on 16th December it was difficult to quantify, are the dynamic effects of entry. It has been estimated that, if ½ per cent. in growth is added over five years, this would bring in £1,100 million put on to the balance of payments. It would not all be export growth, but it would be export led.
The difficulty is, as we have all recognised in the House, that it is extremely difficult to quantify these figures with any precision. What I said on 16th December is on the record. In the light of the negotiations, we tried to give the House the best figures we could, estimating—as I said, with reasonable accuracy, we hope, but even then it is speculative—at the end of the period two items—the contribution to the budget and the food changes. Everyone will agree that there is difficulty about quantifying the trade effects, both the debit and the costs of staying out and the balance of advantage at the end.

Mr. Healey: I am sorry to press this matter. All of us concede that various estimates can be made of the dynamic effects of entry, which should be offset against the cost. On 16th December did not the right hon. and learned Gentleman quantify the cost of the changes in industrial tariffs as being between £200 million and £300 million? The right hon. and learned Gentleman repeated that figure to journalists on 24th June, according to the Economist? Was not that figure in the original draft White Paper? When I put it to the Home Secretary that it had been excluded from the White Paper only at the last minute, the Home Secretary was unable to deny it?
Surely it is the case—the right hon. and learned Gentleman must confirm this—


that the Government did make an estimate and that the estimate was £200 million to £300 million? This brings the total impact cost of entry to £500 million a year in foreign exchange in 1977, on the Government's own calculations.

Mr. Rippon: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has repeated that canard, which he has used from time to time. What he has said is quite untrue. An that I have said is as stated on 16th December. That statement must be read as a whole. I have always said that I believe that at the end of the day the balance sheet shows a positive gain in our favour.
As to the right hon. Gentleman's other allegations about what I am supposed to have said at a private meeting with journalists and what is supposed to have gone on in the Cabinet in the discussions on the White Paper, I say quite categorically that that is not a true statement of the position. It did not happen. We decided that we could not make such predictions. The fate of past exercises in elaborate economic predictions such as the National Plan has shown how unrealistic they are. It is no good producing statistics just as extensions of lines on a graph and assuming that we live in a vacuum with no motive force coming from any direction.
In the course of the negotiations—this was after 16th December—the Community itself pointed out how impossible it was to make any such calculations at present; and it was because of the inevitable uncertainties which must exist about the future that the Community declared that if in the enlarged Community unacceptable situations should arise, the very survival of the Community would demand that equitable solutions were found.
It is true that some people argue, against that background, that to join the Community in those circumstances must be regarded as an act of faith. That is certainly an element in human progress. But, above all, when we have stopped bandying about what we said on 16th December, before the negotiations really started, what the House has to do now in the light of such evidence as we are able to present is to make a judgment. In forming that judgment we have to

accept that there are no available economic techniques which make it possible to quantify the effect of tariff changes—

Mr. Shore: Mr. Shore rose—

Mr. Rippon: I am not giving way in the middle of a sentence.

Hon. Members: Give way.

Mr. Speaker: Order. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman does not give way, the right hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Shore) must not persist.

Mr. Rippon: —I have already given way quite a lot—since I suggest that the biggest factor in determining the outcome will be the vigour of British industry's response to the opportunities and challenge of membership.

Mr. Shore: The House has a right to know what is the right hon. and learned Gentleman's estimate of the contribution that we shall make to the Community budget as from 1979. We know what it is in 1978. We know that it is a reduced rate of £200 million. What we want to know is what is the full rate thereafter.

Mr. Rippon: I will come to that.
In making this judgment, especially in view of the confidence expressed by the vast majority of our industrialists and businessmen and the economic performance of the Six, we have good reason to be confident that the overall effect of our balance of trade will be positive and substantial. As the 1970 White Paper admitted in paragraph 77:
No way has been found of quantifying these dynamic effects but, if British industry responded vigorously to these stimuli, they would be considerable and highly advantageous.
How do we see the size and shape of the Budget after 1977 and our possible contribution? We have to bear in mind that we shall not be joining a static Community. From the outset we shall have a full and influential voice in the decision-making process of the Community, including decisions relating to the shape of the budget. For the purpose of our calculations in the White Paper we have assumed that even in 1977 agricultural expenditure will remain as predominant as at present, and not, as we have reason to expect, that it would


be less so. We would not be simply waiting for events, hoping that something more favourable to our balance of payments would turn up. We would be active inside the Community pressing for the development of regional, industrial and social policies, which should bring us big benefits. That is the element in the budget after 1977—although we have got two further years of adjustment—which really is unquantifiable.
We cannot quantify it for our national budget or for the Community budget. But we have this assurance from the Community, which we did not have on 16th December, that if an unacceptable situation should arise it would take the necessary measures to put it right.

Mr. Harold Wilson: I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for giving way. He said that he would like to reach a situation where we stop bandying about what was said on 16th December. But the right hon. and learned Gentleman said, in reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), that the suggestion that he said something to journalists and that something was said in Cabinet was not a true statement. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman say that both parts of what my right hon. Friend said are untrue? Whatever happened in Cabinet, does he deny that he gave an estimate to journalists of the cost which has not been stated to the House?

Mr. Rippon: I had a meeting with the Lobby, on terms which I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will understand, when I referred to the whole range, from the most disadvantageous point to the most advantageous. I did not give anything like the impression which the right hon. Gentleman suggested, and certainly the Cabinet did not take the view which he suggested.

Mr. Wilson: I accept what the right hon. and learned Gentleman said about the Cabinet. If he gave this very wide range, why did all the leading journalists, writing in what are usually called the "heavies", all seize on one particular figure?

Mr. Rippon: One particular point which was seized upon was that I said we could have an overall improvement

in our balance of payments of £1,700 million by the end of the period. [Interruption.] They also quoted plus £1,700 million as well as minus £500 million.
I have talked so far mostly about the terms, and that is natural. I negotiated them and they have their place in our discussions. But I think more and more people are coming to realise—[Interruption.] An hon. Member is muttering "He said it." I did not say it in anything like the terms suggested. What I said, I stated on 16th December in this House, and I have explained the stages which took place since then.
I think more and more people are coming to realise that the real issue is whether Europeans in the 20th century are still creative enough to add another dimension to their political activities, and whether we can create some form of European unity without sacrificing our national diversity.
We have to debate and deliberate, on an occasion like this, on how this country can respond to the fundamental changes which have taken place in the world in the last 25 years. We have seen the end of the European Empires, the rise of the super-Powers in the East and the West, the spread through industrialisation of the means of economic power, and the relative decline of Europe, where modern society was born. The nation States of Europe, with all the ancient rivalries and fratricidal wars, are too small in the modern world to benefit from the sort of society that they themselves produced. I believe that they need to work on a larger scale, and work increasingly together, if they are to maintain their own splendid traditions.
What we have to consider in this debate—and I think most hon. Members have been doing this—is how can this be done in the years ahead. There are those who look towards a European super-State with all the trappings of executive and legislative power. That is not how I see the future. There is no virtue in gigantism for its own sake. This is the age of the individual as well as the continental-sized market. The strength of Britain in the past over the centuries has lain in our national coherence and singularity. I do not see us lapsing into citizenship of some great


conglomeration of stateless persons. Nor do the citizens of the Community themselves.
There are those who look towards the safety of the past, and they see the future as a sort of comfortable perpetuation of what we have always done before. They talk of our present assets in the Commonwealth and elsewhere. I sympathise with them, but I do not agree with them. They take a partial view of our history and they misunderstand the present. They may not recognise it, but the consequence of their policies would turn us into a sort of latter-day Sweden or a greater Venice. Some people say "Why not be like Sweden on Switzerland?" We would have charm and some influence. But in any day of reckoning we would count for little, and our neighbours would know it.
The right solution is a compromise. We should join the Community in the knowledge that it represents the mutual balance of the interests of the national States and bears no relation to the super-State that many people think it is. It is admittedly more than a common market. We are not joining just a customs union, but a Community.
The balance of advantage between the nations in those Communities is constantly changing. That is why we cannot make estimates of what the position will be, in mathematical terms, in the 1980s. That is why I found this discussion of what will happen after 1978 so irrelevant. It is irrelevant for this reason, that no member of the Community will impose an unacceptable burden on us or any other member. Neither is any other member likely to accept it. That is the relevant consideration in practice, no decision can be taken against the vital interests of a member country.
There are various arguments about sovereignty and the provisions of the Treaty of Rome. President Pompidou put this vividly in his Press Conference on 21st January when he said:
How will the Council of Ministers be able to take its decision? I ask everybody and in particular our partners to consider how coalition governments work When everybody is of the same opinion all goes well. If that is not the case, there is a majority and a minority. At that point either the minority considers the question is not vital and yields, or thinks the contrary and breaks the coalition. It is plain that, in our construction of Europe one cannot break without everything collapsing.

I therefore conclude that important decisions can only be taken on the basis of unanimous agreement and that what is at issue here is political reality rather than juridical rule. If one ignores that reality everything would be destroyed.
Experience shows that national interests are consulted in a most elaborate fashion before a Community proposal gets anywhere near a final decision.

Mr. George Cunningham: Mr. George Cunningham (Islington, South-West) rose—

Mr. Rippon: I listened with great pleasure to the hon. Gentleman's speech. It was in a way his apologia; this is my explanation why I support entry.

Mr. Cunningham: Mr. Cunningham rose—

Mr. Rippon: I listened—

Mr. Cunningham: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman afraid?

Mr. Rippon: I listened to the hon. Gentleman courteously. I am trying to explain what I have done, and why I believe the terms are reasonable. I am trying to explain why I think people are mistaken when they over-emphasise the problems of sovereignty.

Mr. Cunningham: Mr. Cunningham rose—

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Miss Harvie Anderson): Order. The hon. Gentleman knows very well that if the right hon. and learned Gentleman does not give way he must resume his seat.

Mr. Cunningham: Will the Chancellor of the Duchy help me to understand this point? He has said, very sensibly, that M. Pompidou regards it as essential that for any significant change in an important aspect of policy there will be unanimity. Will he therefore tell me, since the French and the five others have agreed that the present agricultural system is to continue, how in God's name we, a minority, will be able to change it when we enter?

Mr. Rippon: The Leader of the Opposition, when Prime Minister, dealt with that particular difficulty. The policy was not negotiable in the context of the negotiations. [Laughter.] As the Leader of the Opposition explained on 8th May, 1967, we can influence it if, but only if we join the Community.
I do not have time to describe the whole process of consultation, but I tried


recently in a speech at Chatham House to do so. It is a long process of consultation before any decision can be reached in the Community—it involves lengthy consideration at every level—and in that consideration our Parliament, like other national Parliaments, would have a vital rôle to play at all stages. Nor would any British Minister be likely to forget that Ministers remain answerable to their national Parliaments.
I would not like to give the impression that we should approach joining the Community in a negative spirit. We ought to be considering what we want to achieve in that Community, not just what we want to prevent. The Community is alive, and the way in which it grows will depend on all its members proceeding with mutual respect. That is the sort of thing I want to see.
We are all agreed that the decision to be taken at the end of the debate will be historic. Even the most prosaic will look upon it as a sort of catching-up process, and recognise that on our decision on Thursday depends whether we catch up or whether we cast adrift.
I believe it is a decision that only Parliament can take. Burke is the most frequently quoted authority on the duty of elected representatives, and he took the view that the people were the natural control on authority but not the body to exercise authority, for to exercise and control together is contradictory and impossible. So he held, and this I believe is the view of most hon. Members, that the elected representatives must assume responsibility for the practical solution of particular problems. As he put it:
Parliament is a deliberative assembly of one nation, with one interest, that of the whole—where not local purposes, not local prejudices ought to guide but the general good resulting from the general reason of the whole.
That ought to be our approach. When we vote on Thursday we have a great responsibility and a great opportunity. In this House this week we stand to gain for future generations through peace that unity of Europe which our forebears vainly, if heroically, sought by arms.

4.39 p.m.

Mr. Michael Foot: Leaving aside all political questions—and I can hardly promise to do that throughout the whole of my remarks—I think it would be a churlish Member of this

House who would not recognise that the right hon. and learned Gentleman, after the arduous efforts which over recent months he has made in the cause in which he believes, is bound to feel some satisfaction that he has got his measure so far. Therefore, in the remarks which I seek to make in replying to what he has said, I seek to recognise his integrity—and, indeed, that of all Members of this House—in reaching this decision.
It has been said by some newspapers that the debate we have had in these last days has been a boring debate. May be some of those who have said that in the newspapers have not listened to the debate. Perhaps they have taken it on Lobby terms as the right hon. and learned Gentleman dealt with some of his figures. I believe myself, having listened, not to the whole of the debate but to most of the speakers in it, that it has been one in which Members in all parts of the House have recognised the great issues at stake and have sought to state their views in a manner which they hoped would persuade other hon. Members It is in that sense that I seek to address the House now.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman, in the early part of his speech—I shall come to the later part of his argument—based most of his arguments on what I believe, too, to be the much more important question of the sovereignty and the whole future of this country. In the early part he seemed to suggest—I am not saying that these are unimportant matters—that everything was now plain sailing, on such subjects as New Zealand, sugar, E.F.T.A., all these other particular issues which have figured most prominently in the arrangement of the terms. He seemed to suggest that on these matters everything had gone quite smoothly and quite properly and quite acceptably to all concerned.
I wonder whether the Government, in that case, if they think that to be the case, have stopped to ask themselves, why is it, if the whole of these negotiations has gone so well, the British people have been so little persuaded. I am not saying that I know what the British people think about these matters, and I certainly do not accept that Gallup Polls or any kind of polls are the final arbiters of what the British people think, but I do not think that there is any member of the


Government who has argued that everything has gone so smoothly, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman suggested, on most of these controversial measures, who would also claim that the British people have been persuaded.
So we ought to ask, why have they not been? Is it because the case has been bady put, whereas the case against, on this side, has been better put? It is not very easy for the Government to say that. Or is it because those who are opposed to entry on these terms have had most of the means of communication—of the newspapers—on our side, and Members opposite have been deprived of the means to state their views to all concerned? Or is it because the British people are stupid? One has to try to probe to discover why it is that, despite the highly successful negotiations which the Prime Minister has told every elector throughout the country he has had, as he has done in the document he has distributed through the Post Office, the British people have not been persuaded.

Mr. John Gorst: Just before he leaves that point, may I ask the hon. Gentleman if there is not the possibility that it is because the Leader of the Opposition and some of his colleagues have changed their minds and large numbers of Labour supporters support them regardless of the merits of the case?

Mr. Foot: The hon. Gentleman can rest assured that I have not left the point yet. I have only just started. I shall seek to deal with many of these matters as I proceed. I believe that the British people are perfectly capable of making up their minds on this subject. Of course they look to see what is said to them by their political leaders, but I believe they have their own judgment in these matters, and that it is wise for Members of this House to respect that judgment and to respect the processes by which it is reached.
In trying to probe this mystery as to why the British people have not accepted the view of the Government and so many others who have supported them in their arguments, my suggestion as to why they have not succeeded in persuading the British people is partly because hon. Members opposite have not sought to

present the argument on its merits. I know that hon. Members of this House very often in other matters hurl quotations at one another; that is a perfectly legitimate form of political controversy and on some occasions essential; but I believe that hon. and right hon. Gentlement opposite, particularly if they believe so passionately in this cause, would be better advised to try to present the case on its merits rather than to say that somebody on this side of the House may have changed his mind. There are many hon. Gentlemen on that side of the House who have changed their minds, including the right hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Rippon: Which right hon. Gentleman?

Hon. Members: Walker.

Mr. Foot: I went on quite a number of platforms with the Secretary of State for the Environment on this subject, and I think that if the right hon. and learned Gentleman inquires into his own political record he will find some other views on this as well. However, I am not saying—

Mr. Rippon: The hon. Gentleman should make it quite clear that I have not changed my views on this matter.

Mr. Foot: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is perfectly entitled to say that, but there are many hon. Members of this House who have changed their views on this subject, and who were perfectly entitled to do so, and who should not be charged on that account. What I am saying to the Government, and I am saying it perfectly seriously, is that, in a matter of this nature, I think it would be wise, when Ministers say they are asking the country to take an historic decision, to try to present that issue on its merits.

Mr. Peter Rost: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that before the Community was set up public opinion in the countries of the Six was in a similar state, but that those people no longer retain the same point of view they did?

Mr. Foot: I understand that argument, too, but I am concerned with the views expressed by the British people, and their rights in this matter, and that is what I propose to discuss

Mr. Rost: Why does the hon. and learned Gentleman need a Whip, then?

Mr. Foot: I promise the hon. Gentleman, if he will be good enough to sit during the rest of my remarks, that I shall deal precisely with that. I promise him and I promise the Patronage Secretary, too.

Mr. Rost: Give the answer now.

Mr. Foot: The hon. Gentleman may find it disagreeable, but I propose to make my speech in the orderly fashion in which I always do.
In my opinion much the strongest argument for entry into the Common Market—and I think it is right for those who take a different view to consider those strongest arguments touched upon by the right hon. and learned Gentleman in the latter part of his speech—much the strongest argument is that which says that in the years to come great decisions are going to be taken by the countries in Europe, great decisions which are bound to influence and affect the trade of this country, the welfare of this country, the general relations of this country, possibly issues of peace and war; that great decisions are going to be taken and we should be there where the decisions are taken. This seems to me to be an extremely powerful argument, and that it is an obligation on those of us who take a different view to try to answer it. In my opinion that argument is the most serious of the most serious arguments which have to be faced by those who are discussing this question. So I should like to reflect upon that theme.
My first reflection upon it—and this touches directly on what the right hon. and learned Gentleman said—is that it appears to me a curious argument first of all to say that the main reason for going in is that great decisions are to be taken in Europe and at the same time to argue that our entry into Europe is not going to involve any erosion of essential sovereignty.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman tried to deal with this question precisely. He said that we do not have to fear any erosion of essential sovereignty, because of what he called today the process of consultation in the Community whereby these decisions are reached, and because of the understanding which the Prime Minister has with President Pompidou

and the arrangement that has been made that the individual will of a single nation will never be overriden by the power of the majority. Indeed, paragraph 30 of the White Paper begins with this sentence:
All the countries concerned recognise that an attempt to impose a majority view in a case where one or more members considered their vital interests to be at stake would imperil the very fabric of the Community.
That is the safeguard against the submergence of the will of a particular nation, but in my judgment that does not describe the real situation.
Policy in Europe is made under the Treaty of Rome by the tug of interests between different nations, and the question may be not whether the majority will override the single nation which wishes to have its vital interests protected, but whether a nation, to secure its own way, will threaten the disruption of the whole Community and thereby enforce its will on the others, even though others claim that interests, maybe of a lesser nature, are involved. In other words, if we enter we may have to accept a whole series of decisions which we dislike intensely for fear that another nation will threaten to destroy the Community if we do not accept them. I believe this to be a possibility. Hon. Members opposite may say, "Why should you worry about these theoretical possibilities; why frighten yourself with such a scarecrow?" [An HON. MEMBER: "Why."] The reason is that that is what has already happened. The right hon. and learned Gentleman does not understand the organisation he is proposing to join. It was precisely by that method that the common agricultural policy was decided. The common agricultural policy was never part of the Treaty of Rome. Anyone who reads the memoirs of President de Gaulle will see that, at his first meeting with Dr. Adenauer, he said, "You will have to accept our ideas on agricultural policy, otherwise we will not go on with the Community." Everyone knows that is how it happened; so it is not a theoretical possibility that decisions within the Community will be made by these means of blackmail. That is what has happened on a major issue on which most people have thought that the procedures of the Community are antagonistic to our interests.
That is not the only way in which it can be proved that the claim in the White Paper that there will be no erosion of essential sovereignty is quite unfounded. I will not weary the House by going through a whole list, but I will give a few of the headings.
The value-added tax is a derogation of the sovereignty of this Parliament. The House of Commons and the British people will have less power to protest against the value-added tax than John Hampden had to protest about ship money. If we go into the Community, that will be settled away from this House.
The Government claim, wrongly in my belief, that investment allowances are one of the best ways to deal with regional policy. They will not be allowed to do it in that way if the rules of the Community are fully applied. Regional employment premiums were put forward by the Labour Government. Those will have to go, too. So those two instruments at least—and there are several more—impartially selected, chosen by the Government and by the Labour Party for dealing with regional policy, would have to go because, under the procedures of the Community, Brussels knows best. That is the principle on which it is done.

Dr. David Owen: Before my hon. Friend gets carried away by his own rhetoric, on the important point of principle which he rightly raised on the issue of sovereignty, how does he square the fact that membership of the United Nations also carries with it some secession of sovereignty, and membership of any treaty or any organisation involves sharing, compromise and, if he likes, haggling?

Mr. Foot: If my hon. Friend will permit me, when I come to that part of my argument I will seek to reply to him. I promise that I will do so, but hon. Members must not extract too many pledges from me or my speech will go on for a very long time.
I say, therefore, on regional policy—and I have given only two examples from many—that there will be a derogation—

Mr. Rippon: May I make it quite clear to the hon. Gentleman that both his examples are wrong.

Mr. Foot: The right hon. and learned Gentleman says that, but that is not what the Commission in Brussels says, and the Commission probably knows a great deal more about it than he does. It the right hon. and learned Gentleman thinks what I say is wrong, why did not he publish in his White Paper a more extensive account of what regional policy was involved? He devoted only three paragraphs to it which did not deal with many of the questions.
To take another example, under the regional policy decided by the countries in Europe there will have to be a decision on where the territories are to be drawn under which particular kinds of grants will be given. This will not rest solely with the House of Commons—

Mr. Rippon: The hon. Gentleman is misunderstanding the position so much that I cannot understand why he opposes our entry. We could not in the White Paper set out everything we can do, which is a very great deal and covers those matters to which the hon. Gentleman is referring.

Mr. Foot: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is quite mistaken about it, because they have discussions in Brussels—

Mr. Rippon: They do, indeed.

Mr. Foot: There are discussions in Brussels on how to draw the areas for which grants and different forms of development aid may be given. These discussions are necessary because, if a whole country were to be made a development area, irrespective of the unemployment position within it, it would not be possible to apply a common regional policy. These matters have been fully discussed in Brussels. It is the ignorance of the right hon. and learned Gentleman that the country should be looking at.
The Government have shown themselves equally ineffective in negotiating on behalf of this country on the question of iron and steel. Most of the questions about iron and steel, the rights of this House and our rights of control over our steel industry, were never raised by the right hon. and learned Gentleman in the negotiations. The Prime Minister boasted not many months ago of one of his brilliant interventions in keeping down prices


in the steel industry. That kind of intervention would not be available to him if we were in the Community. That also is a derogation of our sovereignty.
Many of us on this side of the House—and I do not expect much sympathy from hon. Members opposite, but perhaps more on this side on this particular aspect—have argued for most of our political lives that what we wish to secure is that the great economic decisions shall be made in a way that is responsible to this elected House of Commons. We believe if we go into Europe on the terms which have been arranged under the provisions that have been made there will be some derogation from the sovereignty of this House in dealing with such matters as taxation, coal, steel, the levels of unemployment, and regional policy.
I turn to my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton (Dr. David Owen) who interrupted me, since I promised I would come to his point. Of course, I understand the argument that it may be desirable or necessary to have an erosion of essential sovereignty—[An HON. MEMBER: "And right."] Or right, as one hon. Member says. Indeed, many who say that argue, and are perfectly entitled to do so, that the way to go into Europe is to go flat out for a full, federal State responsible to a federal parliament.
I respect hon. Members who say that, but that is not what the Government say. Indeed, the Government are trying to say the exact opposite. The Government are trying to pretend to this House something quite different. Hon. Members opposite say that there will be no erosion of sovereignty. Indeed this is said in the Government White Paper, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman has repeated it today. When they say that there is no erosion of sovereignty involved, they are seeking to delude the British people.
Let us take, for example, the leading article in yesterday's Observer, a paper strongly in favour of our entry into the Common Market:
In this initial period…
if Britain ever gets in—
…Britain's views must be cogently presented, all the more so because it is inevitable that to some extent policies and decisions on all major questions shaping the Community of Ten are going to be discussed and settled in future away from Westminster.

Mr. Martin Maddan: How has all this changed since 1967 when the hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friends applied to join?

Mr. Foot: I could answer the hon. Gentleman, but I say to hon. Members opposite that in my view, not only in the interests of those of us who are opposed to entry but in the interests of the Government, it would be very much better if they sought to argue the issue on the merits, which is what I am seeking to do.

Mr. John Wilkinson: rose—

Mr. Foot: No; I have given way several times already. I underline the case again by quoting Lord Gladwyn in The Times today where he sets out his view on the question of sovereignty and the powers and authority of this House. Lord Gladwyn says:
If indeed we want the Community to work, the Commission must perform an important rôle. And if we want the whole affair to be democratic there is ultimately no alternative to a Parliament.
I agree with that, too, but in the meantime these great decisions that are to be taken in Europe will be taken by undemocratic bodies. That is the situation as defined by Lord Gladwyn and there is no getting round it. [Interruption.] If the Prime Minister will listen a little more carefully, I will tell him what Lord Gladwyn says at the end of the article. [AN HON. MEMBER: "What about your own argument?"] Let me tell the House what Lord Gladwyn says first.
The first thing is to get into the Common Market: the second is to make it work.
It sounds to me a bit like the song in "Guys and Dolls":
Marry the man today and change his ways tomorrow.
It is one way of going about it. But is that what the Prime Minister said to President Pompidou:
the first thing is to get into your Common Market; the second is to make it work.
That has been the plea which has been made by many hon. Gentlemen on many different aspects of the subject, including fisheries. We are told today on fisheries that we shall have to wait until after the vote before we know how that will work.

Mr. Wilkinson: Mr. Wilkinson rose—

Mr. Foot: No. I suggest to hon. Members opposite that it is partly because of their persistent ambiguity on these matters that they have been unable to persuade the country.
The same applies to the question of food. The country has got it firmly in its head that food prices are going to go up if we go into the Common Market. Indeed, the Prime Minister assists in this respect—not that the Minister of Agriculture needs much assistance on this matter. For every time the Prime Minister gives a reassurance that there is not going to be much of an increase in food prices everyone is the more certain they are going to go through the roof. Indeed, the situation on food prices is such that the country knows that this is what will happen.
This is no small question. It is not a secondary matter. The end of the era of cheap food is no small incident in British history, even if the Leader of the Liberal Party is not prepared to shed a single tear at the abandoned tomb of Richard Cobden. The instinct of the British people on these matters, particularly when it is sustained in the teeth of persistent opposition and propaganda from the main organisations and newspapers in the country, is not to be despised by those who aspire to govern them. I expect the right hon. Gentleman to take some account of these matters.
Anybody who considers the question cannot deny that the erosion of sovereignty will be real. Therefore, it would have been much wiser, in the interests of the nation as a whole, to see if there were some way in which we could gain advantages of entry or association with the Community without the disadvantages which will follow for this House of Commons and the rights of Parliament and the rights of decision.
Because of their previous economic circumstances it was easier for many of the countries in Europe to join the Community. It was certainly easier than for this country to do so, because they did not have to sacrifice many of the economic advantages we have in our preferential trade. And in the same way it is easier for some of the countries in Europe to make the derogations of sovereignty which are required to join Europe precisely because the Parliament

of France, for example, has not the powers of the British Parliament. The Parliament of France was devised by President de Gaulle largely in order that it should not have the same kind of powers as our Parliament possesses. Therefore, it is a very different matter for this country to decide to shed its Parliamentary sovereignty than it is for other countries which have yielded parts of it already.

Mr. Arthur Palmer: My hon. Friend is a man of some intellect. As a Socialist, will he tell us whether he believes that national sovereignty is an end in itself?

Mr. Foot: If I have left that impression, let me correct it at once because that is not my intention. However, when we make derogations from our national sovereignty, I believe that we should be clear about where that sovereignty is to be transferred. As one who has spent some time supporting parliamentary institutions, it is my opinion that it is very unwise for this country to blur the responsibilities of this House. Throughout the country, people look to this House as the body directly responsible for upholding their living standards, their levels of employment, most of their economic rights and the control of their livelihoods. Most of the great political battles in this country's history have been fought to persuade people to look to a democratically elected House of Commons to decide these matters. To take great chunks of that sovereignty and to transfer them to other bodies when no one can say how those bodies will work is extremely dangerous.
People talk about the public opinion polls. On this matter at least perhaps I shall have the agreement of the Prime Minister. I do not set great store on public opinion polls, especially when they set out to describe the faculties, qualities or characters of political leaders. They are not the best bodies for settling such matters. However, one of the most melancholy aspects of public opinion polls at present is that they make two pronouncements together. If they are to be believed, the combination is serious. First, they say that the majority of the British people are opposed to entry into the Common Market. Secondly, in the next breath, they say that they believe it is inevitable that we are going in. That


seems to display a feeling of impotent fatalism amongst the British people which is highly dangerous. When the British people think that they have lost the power by their own efforts and their votes at the ballot boxes to change the course of their lives and of history, a very dangerous state of affairs arises.
Not very long ago, the Prime Minister agreed with me about this. He said that he wanted to do the whole deed in the open. Only a few months ago, the official doctrine was that it would be done only with the full-hearted consent of the British Parliament and people. The people got lopped off that formula fairly early on. I think that it happened in July. Then we were left with only the full-hearted consent of the British Parliament. Instead of "full-hearted", perhaps "half-hearted" has been substituted, but what does 50 per cent. here or there matter when the Government cannot tell us about the missing £500 million. Then it became just "the consent of Parliament", though not a matter of confidence, of course. Such indelicate language never passed the lips of the Patronage Secretary, whatever may have been blurted out by some big-mouth at the Treasury.
Where are we now? It is to be done no longer with the full-hearted consent of the British Parliament and people. Where is the Prime Minister heading now? On to what rocks is he going now? Into what parliamentary shoals, shallows and subterfuges is he steering now'? We are seeing the most daring display of seamanship since the wreck of the "Hesperus". At one time, everything depended on the full-hearted consent of the British Parliament and people. Now it all rests with the Patronage Secretary and on whether the bloodthirsty instruments of the Guillotine and the Closure can be manipulated by "Free Vote" Francis.
I voted against my party on occasions. I do not recall that I ever did it to keep a Tory Government in office, and I do not propose to do so on Thursday. But we shall be voting about a more important matter than that. The Prime Minister and his Government have no mandate. They have no authority to carry these measures through the House of Commons. If the right hon. Gentleman had wanted the authority, he could have tried to get it at the last General Election. So little

did he do so that he never argued it in the country and never argued it in his constituency. Most right hon. and hon. Members opposite, including the deputy leader of the Government, the present Home Secretary, never even mentioned the issue in their election addresses. More than 100 right hon. and hon. Members opposite thought the subject of such paramount importance that they did not mention it in their election addresses.

Dame Irene Ward: They did not mention anything.

Mr. Foot: I think that they mentioned prices. I dare say that the hon. Lady managed to squeeze a mention of prices into her election address, but I do not recall very much about the Common Market.
When right hon. and hon. Members opposite vote on Thursday, they will do so having no mandate and no authority from the people to carry through this measure. I should have thought that even those who favoured the Common Market would wish it to be done with strong backing from the people. If it is an historic decision, it should be taken in an historic manner. It ought not to be—

Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: Can the hon. Gentleman help us? He will remember that he went to the General Election in 1970 as a member of a party which had an application on the table to join Europe. For the record, can he tell us in what part of the Labour Party Manifesto or in what speech made by any member of that Government it was made clear that, when the terms were known, they would be subjected first to a General Election?

Mr. Foot: The right hon. Gentleman should have been a little more diligent before putting that question to me. If he will do me the courtesy of consulting my own election address—[Interruption.] That is the difference between my situation and that of many other right hon. and hon. Members. When I stand here and say that I am opposed to entry into the Common Market, I am saying exactly what I said at the election. I also made it clear that, when I returned here, I would do all that I could—

Mr. Cranley Onslow: Mr. Cranley Onslow (Woking) rose—

Mr. Foot: I also made it clear—

Mr. Onslow: Mr. Onslow rose—

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Member knows very well that if the hon. Gentleman does not give way he must resume his seat.

Mr. Foot: So I say to hon. Members that when they come to vote, both—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]—I am answering for the people who sent me to this House of Commons, and I think that other hon. Members should do the same, because the Prime Minister has no authority in the records of this country, he has no authority under constitutional precedent, he has no authority under the mandate which he sought in 1970, and he has no authority from any of the ways in which we are accustomed to settle our affairs, to push through a measure of this major consequence without letting the British people have the chance to give their verdict.
So let the right hon. Gentleman pluck up his courage to face the free vote of the people. That, in the end, is the only vote which will count.

5.21 p.m.

Mr. Philip Goodhart: No one can say that the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) has not been wholly consistent on this issue. In the last 10 years, the hon. Gentleman has gone into the Division Lobby against the Common Market supported by only three of his colleagues. At that time the Labour Party sat mutely by.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has also been wholly consistent on this issue, long before he went off to conduct so ably the negotiations in Brussels.
Many hon. Members who have spoken in the first two days of the debate have also made plain that they have held strong and consistent views on this issue for the last 10 years. I envy them their certainty on this matter. All I can do is to pinpoint, with some degree of accuracy, the moment at which doubt first began to enter into my mind.
Some years ago, I made a small contribution to the pamphlet "One Europe". As a reward for my efforts I was one of those who were invited to

go to the headquarters of the Commission in Brussels. We were greeted by a distinguished member of the Commission's staff who proceeded to give us a lengthy talk on the difficulties of harmonising British patent law with the system of patent law in force on the Continent. I admit that, on the whole, patent law is not a subject which makes the blood course swiftly through my veins, but, as I listened to this brilliant argument unfold, I found myself increasingly thankful that this distinguished gentleman was not in any way responsible for the conduct of the economic affairs of this country.
When it comes to making a decision on this great issue, I do not think that we, as Members of Parliament, can afford to be wholly influenced by subjective matters. We must try to look at the facts. It seems that in the course of the last two months the economic case for going into the Community has been very much strengthened. A number of my hon. Friends—notably my hon. Friend the Member for Faversham (Mr. Moate) in an outstanding speech on Wednesday night—argued that we ought to be working towards multilateral international free trade. Many of us think that that would be a wholly desirable end. But, since Mr. Nixon floated the dollar and introduced the import surcharge and other measures curtailing America's international trade, the world has entered into a climate which is strongly protectionist. Therefore, there is no point in hoping that free trade will come when we have to deal with the cold wind of protectionism.
I agree that many of the economic arguments with which we are faced cannot be quantified. Perhaps our entry will stimulate growth. It is difficult to quantify that. Perhaps our entry will stimulate investment. I most certainly hope that it will. Perhaps our entry will stimulate efficiency and lead to improved living standards. I hope that that will come to pass. The academic economists appear to be wholly divided on this issue, as on so many others, but I am certain that when it comes to trying to drive a hard bargain in international trade negotiations, the European Economic Community has very few masters. We know, to our cost, that it can drive a hard bargain.
If we are going into a protectionist climate, then I would far rather have the negotiators of the European Economic Community working on our behalf than against us.
However, I am much less certain and have many more reservations when it comes to the political and the constitutional side of this question. The Foreign Secretary, opening the debate, talked about increased British authority on a wider stage. I do not think that our influence on the international scene will necessarily increase through our entry. It seems only too probable that an attempt to hammer out a common European policy on the great issues of the day will lead to the lowest common compromise.
If we go in I do not fear that Britain's voice or influence will be swept aside or disregarded, but I do fear that the voice of Britain will be muted in endless committee meetings.
At the same time, I fear that we shall lose rather more of our economic independence than many people now realise. This House, after all—the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale referred to this in passing this afternoon when he mentioned John Hampden—has achieved its unique position and power through its total control over taxation.
In the next Session we shall be asked to approve a Bill to adopt a scheme for V.A.T., and no doubt we shall. We shall do that quite voluntarily but, whatever the technical merits of V.A.T. may be, I doubt whether it will prove to be a very popular tax. When it comes into force after 1st January, 1973, and our constituents come to us and say that they do not like the V.A.T. and wish to get rid of it, then, because it will be an integral part of the economic system of the Community, we shall find that even if there is a majority in the House against V.A.T. we cannot get rid of it.
That will drive home to us, in a forceful and perhaps unpleasant fashion, the fact that we have lost a degree of economic independence in this country, and economic power in this House. But it is not necessarily wrong or fatal to give up independence. After all, many of us give up a degree of independence when we get married, and we do not necessarily regret that. It seems to me, however, that on the question of independence we

should not vote lightly or easily, and I have argued, therefore, that the public should have an opportunity of expressing their views before a final decision is taken.
I welcome unreservedly the fact that this side of the House, at least, is to have a free vote on this issue, and I regret that the Opposition's response to that has been so grudging. The battle for public acceptance will not end on 28th October, and I believe that the public mood might well have been irretrievably soured if the Government had tried to push the policy of joining Europe through the House at every stage on a three-line Whip.
The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale reminded us—as did the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal Party—that the Common Market issue was not raised in so many constituencies at the last General Election. This was due entirely to the fact that at that time it was the policy of the Labour Party, as well as of the Conservative Party, that we should go into the Common Market.
It is argued now that there should be a General Election on this issue. What about the constituencies of the 89 Members of the Parliamentary Labour Party who are still in favour of entry into the Common Market?

Mr. Ivor Richard: The hon. Gentleman will have heard my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) speaking from the Front Bench. The hon. Gentleman will realise that, like my hon. Friend, many of us on this side of the House who are in favour of going into the Community put that fact to our electorates, and were elected.

Mr. Goodhart: I do not altogether welcome the hon. Gentleman's return to the House, but I accept that he honestly put this issue to his electorate at the last election. What would happen if there were now to be a General Election on this issue? Holding that view the hon. Gentleman would presumably argue in favour of going in, and the Conservative Central Office would have to find an anti-Market candidate to put up against him in order to give free expression to the views of the electorate. What would happen in the constituency of Leeds, East? At the start of the election the


Labour candidate would be in favour of staying out of the Common Market, but who can say what his view would be at the end of it?
I do not think that a General Election could necessarily give the views of the electorate on this single issue, and I have argued that there ought to be a special referendum on this issue. In the constituency of Beckenham we had a special referendum and, oddly enough, the voice of Beckenham almost exactly supported my views on this issue. The voice of Beckenham, as expressed in the referendum, was uncertain, slightly hesitant, divided and marginally in favour of entry into the Common Market. It could be argued that it showed a massive mandate to abstain after 10 years of debate. I do not feel like abstaining, but I do not base the case for my vote on a fractional majority of a few votes in a low poll.
I think that what finally decided me to go into the Lobby in favour of entry into the Common Market was a point made by the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale, and he was only repeating what has been said many times on this side of the House. It is true that, as the years go by, our power to influence decisions of the Six will inevitably decline if we stay outside, while their power to influence our decisions will inevitably increase. The coming together of Western Europe in the Community is one of the most hopeful signs that there have been in the last few centuries. The fact that Western Europe now seeks to settle its political differences in arguments about butter surpluses, rather than in arguments about guns, seems to me to be an absolute gain. I think that the European Economic Community will be a better place if we are inside. It seems to me likely that their decisions will be wiser and better-balanced if we are inside rather than outside, and therefore on Thursday I shall vote to go in.

5.38 p.m.

Mr. Nigel Spearing: I interpret the speech of the hon. Member for Beckenham (Mr. Goodhart), in his own words, as a mild "Yes". I suggest to him and to any of his hon. Friends, and, indeed, to any of my hon. Friends, who are thinking of voting "Yes" on Thurs-

day that they should abstain. That is the burden of my first few remarks.
The hon. Gentleman said that this was something of a contract, and he likened it to marriage, but in marriage one marries for better or for worse, and the conditions in law are not exact. It is a matter of personal characteristics.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) used the phrase "chunks of sovereignty", and that is what I want to refer to now. Last summer, long before the White Paper was published, I asked the Foreign Secretary whether he would include in it details of the sovereignty we should have to give up. He said that he would not. Later on, on 29th July this year, I asked him:
…if he expects to be in a position to publish, before September, a schedule showing for each article of the Treaty of Rome the Section and name of any Act of Parliament which would require amendment should the United Kingdom decide to accede to that Treaty, together with statements describing the significance and effects of any such amendments.
The Chancellor of the Duchy, who replied, said:
No. The examination and modification as necessary of community legislation is continuing and is not expected to be completed before the end of the year."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th July, 1971; Vol. 822, c. 163.]
But that did not mean to say that we could not have had published before this debate those parts of the Community legislation which we do know about, and those parts which we have had some indication will be passed between now and Christmas—assuming that we pass this Motion.
In other words, we know that something is agreed, but we are not told what. We are told that something will come before the signing of the Treaty, but we are not told what it is. Hon. Members who are thinking of voting in favour are therefore putting, their names to a form on which they have not seen the small print.
I put this to the Prime Minister last Thursday and asked him whether he was
…asking us to sign a form before he is prepared to show us the small print?
He replied:
No. I cannot accept that, because the position about sovereignty, and the implications of the Treaty of Rome and the regulations issued under it, have been covered in White Papers published by both the previous Administration


and ourselves."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st October, 1971; Vol. 823, c. 892.]
But that goes exactly counter to what his right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said in reply to my question of 29th July. The right hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways. Either the details are in the White Paper—I suggest that they manifestly are not: it is too brief—[An HON. MEMBER: "Were they in yours?".] That is not what the argument is about. The vote on Thursday will be on the Government's White Paper, not that of the Opposition.
Either that, or, as the Chancellor of the Duchy said, we are signing a blank cheque, because he is not prepared to give us the details. Therefore, any hon. Gentleman who votes "Yes" on Thursday is guilty of something which the hon. Member for Beckenham said that he would not wish to do—commit himself to something that we do not know about.
If complications arise, if things are more complex and difficult than they appear at the moment—I think that they will be: I will quote Article 101 in a moment—it is no use hon. Members saying, "We did not understand, we did not know," because the electorate will say that it is the duty of Members of Parliament to ask questions. I have done so, and I have had no proper reply. Any hon. Members looking at these facts should think very carefully about voting "Yes".
I now wish to switch to the merits of the matter. Here, I am in agreement with my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor) who spoke on Thursday, and my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South-West (Mr. George Cunningham), who spoke on Friday. Those are the two pillars of my case, and I wish to put a coping stone on them.
I have heard no fewer than 35 speeches in the debate, many of them in favour of entry. I have found them, particularly those of my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. William Rodgers) and the hon. Member for Beckenham, a mixture of ideals, hopes, generalised assertions and repetition. It has been extremely difficult to have an argument on the merits of the matter because hon. Members always try to disengage from the proposition.
Some hon. Members have been sent, free of charge, a most interesting book called "Destiny or Delusion?", putting the case against the Market. I asked the European Movement whether it had published any Press release or booklet to counter any of these arguments. I was told that it had not. The New Statesman also published an interesting case against the Market, and I understand that no comment has been made on that either.
So the merits of the proposition have been rather more emotional than exact. In particular, there is the repetition of the word "opportunity". We hear it time and again in almost every sphere. "Opportunity" does not mean that there will be a guarantee of success nor even that success is probable. It is of course uncertain. It is like the pools: everyone has the opportunity to win £100,000. The question is, what are the odds?
In a television interview on Independent Television on 27th May, the Prime Minister was asked by the interviewer, a Mr. Snow:
Are you saying then, quite definitely, that there is no doubt that the housewife, though she may be paying more, will have a husband who will be earning even more than that?
The Prime Minister answered:
That will be the opportunity open to him, yes.
But there are nearly one million people in this country who have not the opportunity to earn anything. There is no guarantee in that whatsoever. It is the same as a teacher at a school near Eton College assuring the mother of a small boy that the child has an opportunity of going to Eton. This is the type of promise that the Government hold out to give people a hope of gain.
But it is not just a matter of opportunity. If firms expand—the right hon. Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples), for example, said that a firm in his constituency had a chance to expand—technology brings its own problems. We have them anyway. One man's expansion is another man's redundancy: in my own constituency, the ongoing rate of technical change—

Mr. Peter Emery: What does the hon. Member mean by that?

Mr. Spearing: I will explain it to the hon. Gentleman in a moment. If there is extra competition in Europe, there


will be less opportunity for someone somewhere else—[Laughter.] Of course hon. Members laugh. They do not understand how difficult it is for a man who is thrown out of work—[HON. MEMBERS: "Explain."] I will explain. My hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie), who was a coal miner, said last week that his union would not necessarily favour entry to the Market, even if it meant another 25 million tons a year, if it also meant that other miners in Europe would thereby be put out of work.
We are not being asked to enter a co-operative society. The Common Market is a highly competitive institution. All the difficulties and dangers of excess competition will therefore be highlighted if we go in. We see these large firms moving around like prehistoric animals eating each other up. We hear of merger manœuvres. This will go on all over Europe if we go in. Where will it end?
After the war, I was fortunate enough to be part of a school exchange project. We had friends on the Continent. Some of the staff who organised this had fought in two wars. They were not promoting international understanding so that my son could put my friend's son out of work or vice versa. That is what I mean by competition.
The White Paper says that there will be greater opportunities. It states that there is a higher wage rate in the Common Market than in this country. Paragraph 52 of the White Paper says that, except for Italy, earnings in the Common Market are between a quarter and a half higher than in this country. But that is an average figure and it is very difficult to compare averages.
When I asked the Chancellor of the Duchy whether he could give me figures for each industry, he replied in a letter on 1st October:
Comparable figures on an industry basis, which you request, are not available to us.
If those figures are right, quoted in the round, they must be tested by an individual comparison, and that the Government are not able to give.
What of growth? We are told that growth will be greater. But it is not growth as a whole that counts but the parts which grow and the parts which contract—and that suggests that one has

a control over the economy, not only functional and individual, but also geographical. If there are common regulations for a much wider area, in the average situation it means that the number of those people who will be at a disadvantage will be greater.
It is well known that Whitehall receives many deputations. The various Ministries are always hearing special cases for industries or parts of the country. Generally speaking, Whitehall is sympathetic and sensitive to these cases. However, if we widen the social, geographical and historical area over which such cases can be pleaded, the average will not necessarily be good for everyone. Those at a disadvantage will increase in number, and perhaps this country will be at a disadvantage to a greater extent than most.
This will in particular affect regional development. The Chancellor of the Duchy said, when questioned about this, that there was not much in the White Paper on the subject because it was not in the negotiations. Is he aware that the White Paper is not about the results of the negotiations but about the effects of our entry into the Community?
If the Channel Tunnel were built it might be fair to say, to avoid regional distortion, that we will charge a common tariff for rail freightliners from the other side of the Channel to any terminal on British Rail. By imposing such a common tariff, we would be producing a regional policy at a stroke, the regional implications would be very great. However, Article 101 of the Treaty says:
Where the Commission finds that a discrepancy between the provisions imposed by law, regulation and administrative action in Member States is interfering with competition within the Common Market and consequently producing distortion which needs to be eliminated, it shall consult the Member States concerned.
But Article 101 also says:
if such consultation does not result in an agreement eliminating that distortion in question, the Council shall, on a proposal from the Commission, adopt the necessary directives for this purpose, unanimously during the first stage and thereafter by a qualified majority. The Commission and the Council may take any other appropriate measures provided for in this Treaty.
It does not say what a distortion is or who shall judge what it is. It says that in respect of a
distortion which needs to be eliminated


meaning, presumably, that certain distortions may stay
it shall consult the Member States concerned".
We are then told that certain measures may or shall be taken. We are told that
if…consultation does not result in an agreement…the Council shall…adopt the necessary directives for this purpose…and…take any other appropriate measures.
Can any hon. Member imagine a provision of that kind being passed in Committee upstairs?
That is the sort of legislation the hon. Member for Beckenham is apparently happy to support, although its implications almost beggar the imagination. These are the sort of provisions we have in mind when we refer to our sovereignty. This is what the Labour Party meant in 1924 when, as we were recently reminded at Brighton, one of our election posters said:
The rich man's power is in his purse. The poor man's power is in his politics. Do not surrender your power to the rich man. He already has too much.
I do not believe that there are not industrial interests in Europe or that they do not have some interest in regional policy.
I had intended to refer to the common agricultural policy but because of the number of hon. Members who wish to speak, I will not delay the House on this subject, except to comment in passing that a common agricultural system of prices on an area as diverse geographically as that from Italy to the Shetlands and Orkney has very grave dangers for good husbandry, a point which has not been made in these debates. The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food agreed in a letter he sent to me some time ago that there might be technical dangers in adopting the C.A.P. for British agriculture, but he pretended that they would be offset by extra income to the industry.
The future of Britain is bound up with the future of its land use, and the same applies to all civilisations. America discovered in the 'thirties that one cannot have a free market system in agriculture which does not fit the natural conditions of the country concerned.
Looking at the future, it is clear that the issues of peace and war grip our imaginations and fears. The hon. Member for the Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-

Bourke) and the hon. and learned Member for Solihull (Mr. Grieve) said that they had had two world wars and did not want a third. I agree, but we are not trying to prevent two wars that have happened. They are over and it is a third that might come. I have found that young people are far more aware of this problem than hon. Gentlemen opposite imagine. Indeed, they are more aware of it than are hon. Gentlemen opposite. Hardly anyone has really analysed this problem for the future.
I do not feel that Britain should be great simply for its possessions. A country, like a person, is not great because of what it possesses but because of what it does. We are in an historic position to play a world rôle. There are personal links between a great many parts of the world and this House, and in this House there is knowledge, and an understanding and sympathy for what is happening in the various power blocs in many parts of the world.
What do we see in the world? We have a Europe partly based on Benelux and the Coal and Steel Community. Then we have the Council of Europe. People look at Soviet Marxism and say "Certain things that it predicted are beginning to come to pass". We can look at China and say that we do not like some aspects. But there is a great deal to learn from its community life. We are witnessing the struggle for the survival of democracy in certain areas, including the United States, particularly on civil rights, matters affecting the consumer and on conservation.
We have great Commonwealth links but, as the Prime Minister showed in Singapore, he does not think much of them. We have had a world rôle and we can continue to have one, among other things, preventing a possible third world war. After all, such a war will not happen because somebody wants it to happen. It will break out only because of a diplomatic difficulty, with the world stumbling into war, I fear that this is not beyond possibility in view of what is happening in India and Pakistan.
If we do not have freedom to use our links with various parts of the world—our traditions, and the things we have accumulated throughout history—to prevent, perhaps by a hair's breadth, a situation into which the world may stumble, we


will not be able to play our rôle and do the things that hon. Gentlemen opposite say we will be able to do only if we join the E.E.C.
There has been a lot of misunderstanding about this. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have been conned into an action which cannot be put better than it was expressed by the Prime Minister, as reported in The Times on 21st May last. An extract from a speech the right hon. Gentleman made at the banquet in the Elysée Palace, when he met President Pompidou, read:
When Mr. Heath spoke, he said that the common objective of Britain and France was to build a united Europe in 'a city that is, at unity itself, that has peace within its walls and plenteousness within its palaces'.
He was talking about walls. That was the direction in which his mind was moving. Perhaps he did not realise that he was quoting Psalm 122, but it is referring to Jerusalem and not Europe.
We in Britain have some idea of what Jerusalem means; the ideal community—something held in common on both sides of the House—but Jerusalem today is not England's green and pleasant land. Indeed, it is not even that part of Western Europe that has adopted an Asian religion called "Christianity". Jerusalem is the whole world. Unless the leaders in this country understand that, the probability of a third world war will be there, however much we are anxious to avoid it.
Because of this narrow-minded approach not only on the part of the Prime Minister but also his supporters on the benches opposite, I shall willingly vote "No" on Thursday.

5.58 p.m.

Mr. Christopher Brocklebank-Fowler: I am a European, not least because I was born one. Because I was born a European, I believe fervently in the future of European co-operation.
Having said that, I wish to emphasise how important I appreciate it is, particularly in a parliamentary democracy, that one should have the fullest consultation with one's constituents before coming to a decision of this gravity. That I have done, as most hon. Members will have done.
During the Summer Recess I had a campaign of advertisements running in the local newspapers in my area calling on everyone to write to let me know what they felt on this great issue. One interesting point to emerge was that not one of my local industries wrote against our joining the E.E.C. So intrigued was I by this, not least because we have a 4·7 per cent. unemployment rate in my area, that I followed up this phenomenon by discussing the matter with leaders of local industry. When I discussed with them their plans for the future, I came to the conclusion that in my constituency industry foresaw appreciable expansion and consequential reduction in unemployment.

Mr. Arthur Lewis: The hon. Gentleman said "industry". I assume that he means "industrialists". Did he consult the trade unions? If so, what trade unions did he consult?

Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler: It is very pleasant to give way to my former opponent in West Ham. I hope that he will extend me the privilege on a future occasion. When I speak about industry, I speak about the people who are responsible for running industry. With great respect, and it may be with some sadness, we have not yet reached a stage when the forward planning of industry is discussed with the trade union movement in its fullest detail. Perhaps that will come in the future. I hope that it will. But for the present, it was true that the managers of local industries discussed with me their plans for the future and, in doing so, caused me to believe that the prospects for them, for the town and for employment were of very great significance.
In addition to my correspondence campaign, I had 71 public meetings in my constituency. I thought it necessary to have these because my constituency is very widely scattered. It has a large number of villages and many of those who live in the constituency earn their living through agriculture and horticulture. Working hard as they do, they do not always find it easy to come to our centre of population to discuss matters with their Member, and I felt it right to go to them.
Going round the constituency, I found that there was concern over the future of


the three great rural industries, agriculture, horticulture and fisheries. But when one discussed agriculture with those who have large farms in Norfolk, one realised very quickly that all of them were looking to the future with some hope, and with the hope of running their enterprises more profitably than they have done in the last five or ten years. Hopefully, as I constantly expressed, they will be able, as a result of that, to pay higher wages to agricultural workers.
During the debate last week, reference was made to the attitude of the National Farmers' Union to our joining the Community, and the Minister mentioned part of a circular which set out the union's view. I should like to mention another part, which may stand well in the record:
There is little doubt that by the end of the transitional period, British producers can achieve the Government's forecast of an additional 8 per cent. in output, over and above the expansion that would otherwise have been expected.
The circular then concluded:
To summarise, therefore, the N.F.U. is neither pro nor anti but believes that agriculture cannot be regarded as an obstacle to entry.
If the union says that, surely one is right to believe that there is a good future for this industry in the Community. From my consultations, especially with the large growers of beet and corn, I find that there is a tremendous future for them. There is also the possibility that we can grow more grass, thereby growing better beef and taking advantage of the higher beef prices.
I have no doubt about the future for Norfolk farmers. If the hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Spearing) will forgive me, I take more notice of those who are doing the job in Norfolk than of him when he expresses his concern for their future. Our farmers will do well.

Mr. Spearing: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Several Hon. Members: Several Hon. Members rose—

Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler: I am sorry—I am giving way to the hon. Member for Acton.

Mr. Spearing: I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman. Would he not agree that, whilst the prospects for the large arable farms, especially in East Anglia

and South-East England are probably good, those in the rest of the country, particularly upland areas and those dependent on grass, which may not be grown as much, are not as definite as he makes out?

Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler: The hon. Gentleman asks me to speak for people whom I do not represent. There are those on both sides of the House who are more qualified than I or the hon. Member for Acton to speak for those interests.
Turning to fisheries, in the King's Lynn constituency we have a small fishing fleet which has a considerable advantage over some other fishing fleets throughout the country because the datum line for the limit begins at the mouth of the Wash, and this gives them clear water of about 20 miles within which to fish. Nevertheless, we welcome the Minister of Agriculture's assurances about conservation measures which will remain within the United Kingdom's control. I note with great pleasure the strong negotiating position we now have and the Government's determination to safeguard the interests of our fishermen.
In reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke), the Minister of Agriculture repeated his commitment to compensation and assistance to horticulture in the event of smaller growers going out of business as a result of our joining the Community. I should like to add to the remarks of my hon. Friend and hope that if some of our smaller growers are adversely affected the Government will be extremely generous in their compensation to such people.
There is still considerable apprehension in my constituency about pears and apples. The industry is beginning to recognise, perhaps for the first time, the need to grade, store, package and market efficiently in order not only to compete in the United Kingdom market but also to exploit market possibilities overseas—and certainly there are some there. We appreciate, too, the potential for bulbs, field crops and soft fruit, and people in King's Lynn are confident that they can exploit these opportunities. If small farmers, horticulturalists and fishermen are prepared to take on the rest of Europe in this great venture, is it not about time


that we in this House of Commons started to show some courage too?
I took particular note of a remark made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. In opening the debate he said that now was the time for Britain to show courage, yet what he often saw about him were the withdrawal symptoms of a nation uncertain as to its future. I too recognise those symptoms. The question for us in this debate is whether we, in parliament, can respond and lead our country to find a new rôle and a new purpose in the world outside. For too long we have reeled under the economic and spiritual burden of winning the war.
Like the hon. Member for Acton, I recognise the splendid speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Ely and that of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Solihull (Mr. Grieve) who spoke most movingly of some of the sacrifices made by themselves and their families during two world wars. We recognise those who look backwards to an unhappy past and understand their wish that we should have a united Europe. Some of us were not materially affected by the last war except that my parents' lives were disrupted to a certain extent and business suffered, and so on. But we were not the victims of action in war. We simply saw the war as young children. I suppose we enjoyed it because of its excitement. However, my generation does not want another war. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for West Ham, North is amused by that. I was a child during the war. Children played with toys then, as they do today.

Mr. Arthur Lewis: The hon. Gentleman said that he enjoyed it.

Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler: Of course we enjoyed playing with such toys as forts. Although we did not suffer in the war, we recognise that war is unacceptable today and at any time in the future.
My generation wants to look ahead to the future. We look for leadership now into a brilliant future for Britain, a leadership which casts off the shackles of the past and recognises that Britain has a unique rôle to play in the world in future.
The key to this rôle may be found in a speech which Signor Colombo made in

a House of Commons Committee Room earlier this year. He said this:
For over a decade Italy has placed among the guidelines of her policy the widening of the European Community to the United Kingdom. This aim, which we have pursued with tenacity even in the darkest periods, has seemed to us to be the natural crowning of the process of integration between nations which are so near in civilization, history, geographical position, and economic levels.
I take issue with the Prime Minister of Italy, because I do not believe that this is the natural crowning of the process. I believe that, for the hope of humanity as a whole, it is the beginning of a process which will continue for many years and enable the world to find the peace and security which have so far eluded it. I believe that the achievement of Britain's entry into the E.E.C. may well be the catalyst which leads to an outward-looking and a politically united Europe, a Europe not an end in itself, but a beginning of new associations, a Europe whose natural markets will be the Middle East and Africa where we have ties of language, of history, of geography, and of understanding, so that we can act in our own interests together.
By the end of this century the population of the Middle East and Africa will be about 1,000 million people, who will be looking forward to the future for growth rates which so far in Europe we have not attained and looking to us for partnership in the great ventures in which they are involved.
I am glad to say that this view is well illustrated by a recent speech in Ghassan Tueni, who was only recently Deputy Prime Minister of the Lebanon, which he made at an extra-mural meeting at the Conservative Party Conference at Brighton. During the course of his speech he said this:
We think Britain is particularly well placed to usher into the Middle East a new force, the force that would break the present polarisation. This new force can only be Europe. Not a Europe that would be a fourth or fifth competitor in a game of power politics, but a Europe that is prepared to consider the Middle East as its natural extension, its natural partner in a new international complex. A complex that would be both political and economic, reviving the ancient community of civilisation that bound Europe to the Middle East.
I agree with Mr. Tuéni that this is the prospect that lies ahead of us. Now is the time for us to forget the colonial past


and to look ahead to the reality of a new kind of co-operation in Europe which will be in the interests of us all and in the interest of world peace.
Last week an hon. Member spoke disparagingly of this whole venture as requiring a triumph of hope over experience. My generation and those who follow expect no less from their leaders than that they should achieve that reality in the cause of world peace. For that reason, I shall be voting in favour of the Motion.

6.15 p.m.

Mr. Charles Pannell: There was much that I agreed with in the speech of the hon. Member for King's Lynn (Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler), but my experience has not been in agricultural parts. I represent part of the great city of Leeds. In the spheres of engineering and wool the future of that city lies in Europe.
This is largely a gut issue, by which I mean that it is something which is not settled by arguments or the small change in the agreement. It is a matter of certain fundamental attitudes from which we start.
On the Opposition Front Bench today are my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) and my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot). I have known them for many years. I ask only that they grant me the same credit for sincerity as I grant them.
More than 10 years ago I debated this matter with my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North in his constituency. He has brought up to date today many of the arguments. I recognise that these fundamental arguments are still the same, but my right hon. Friend was then making that speech long before we discussed terms. It was the very idea that repelled him. He has been consistent in his objections.
With respect to my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale, who sits next to my right hon. Friend—they are like a pair of heavenly twins—he has the same fundamental assumptions. He has objected. I have re-read the speech that he made in 1967. He has brought that up to date.
I hope that those on the Opposition Front Bench will understand that over all these years I have been attracted by the idea. I went on a deputation with my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins), my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Crewe (Mr. Scholefield Allen), and Lord Diamond to see Hugh Gaitskell before the 1962 speech to try to get him to modify his view.
Hon. Members now on the Opposition Front Bench do not believe in the Labour Party policy at present. The Labour Party policy is to go in on the right terms. They do not want any terms at all. They reject the idea root and branch. If we win at the next General Election, as I understand it we will carry on after it with the attitude which we had at the last—that if the terms are right we shall go in.
In 1967, in a glowing passage, my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale said that he would not be whipped into the Lobby—that we were not to be whipped into Europe. Frankly, I am not to be whipped out of it. I am sure that my hon. Friend will accord to me the degree of tolerance on a three-line Whip for which he asked for himself.

Mr. Michael Foot: I grant my right hon. Friend his position immediately. I will defend his right to say what he wants in the House of Commons as much as I have had the right to say it. However, after I had voted against the Leader of my party on that occasion I did not claim the right to be a member of the leadership at the same time. That is what my right hon. Friend must face.

Mr. Pannell: I never claimed to be the Leader of the party. That charge should have been made in another quarter where obviously it could have been answered with greater fluency than I can command now.
My constituency has never been in any doubt about my attitude. Over all these years, even when I differed with Hugh Gaitskell and previous to that, my party has never misunderstood my position. Indeed, only a few weeks ago when I was re-adopted for the new Leeds, West constituency I said, "I hope that you know what you are doing. You are adopting a European". That was rather better than putting it in an election


address, because by then the election had passed. This was concerned with my future. I have no doubt that certain people will object when I get back there, but I must take the consequences. I do not think that I have ever avoided the consequences in my political life. I understand that sort of thing perfectly well.
I grant my hon. Friend this: he is certainly expressing a view which was expressed at the conference, but at the present time there is a certain schizophrenia in our movement. All the 62 Members, or whatever the number was, who voted in 1967 voted against the concept; the terms were not known at all. In the main, the conference this year voted against the concept. My own trade union voted against the whole idea and would have none of it, before even the terms were known. Therefore, somehow there has got to be a reconciliation in our movement in this opposition.
This is a great issue. Somebody said that it is the only issue which is short of war. We must not misunderstand each other and we must not misunderstand what we really want at the end of the day. I have always wanted to go into Europe and I have always hoped that I would be voting to go in under a Labour Prime Minister. What is more, I am being completely loyal to the Labour Party, of which I was a Minister, on the assumption that our Prime Minister proceeded in good faith because he wanted to go into Europe. Therefore, I must take it that the leader of my party and those associated with him still want to go into Europe.
The only issue is the terms, although that is not the only issue between my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. Harold Wilson) and my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale today. Had it been possible for us to win the last General Election and our Prime Minister had taken up the terms of 30th June —I see that my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale shakes his head. This is a hypothetical possibility; he could not have gone into the election believing that we would lose. On the assumption that we would have started negotiations at that time, whatever the terms would have been, my right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw

Vale would have opposed them. I believe the conference would have opposed them because, as I said earlier, it was a gut issue. Everybody to whom I have put this view understands that the proposition is perfectly true. However, I believe that I was led in good faith. I do not believe that my leader "conned" me in this matter. I wanted to go in and I waited with anxious expectancy and with a certain excited hope for the terms. The terms eventually came at the end of the day, and we are told that they a re not good enough.
My position and that of my hon. Friends has been challenged. Very often the famous speech of Hugh Gaitskell has been prayed in aid. My hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale was not so great a friend of Hugh Gaitskell as I was. My hon. Friend has quoted Hugh Gaitskell at length. I refer him to something else which the leader said in the famous 1960 conference at Scarborough when he opposed conference and made it possible for us to win in 1964. He said "What about the Parliamentary party? They are honourable men and they cannot change overnight." Frankly I cannot change overnight. I shall not abstain. This is not the stuff for total abstainers. This is the time for men to stand up and be counted. That is how I shall go into the Lobby.
I do not question the good faith of my hon. Friends on the Front Bench. I do not question the faith of the new Members who could not be expected to be hog-tied to any previous decision. But I do sometimes question the good faith of those people on the payroll vote and who were members of the last Government, in their attempt to re-write history. I should like to refer to some words which appear in the White Paper which we produced in 1970. Unlike the hon. Member for King's Lynn, I will not make a second-hand speech consisting of copious quotations, but I should like to make just one quotation. This is the fundamental assumption on which the Labour Party was going into the Common Market. This is what they believed—not the small change but the big stuff:
But whatever the economic arguments, the House will realise that … the Government's purpose derives above all from our recognition that Europe is now faced with the opportunity of a great move forward in political unity and that we can—and indeed we must—play


our full part in it. We do not see European unity as something narrow or inward-looking. Britain has her own vital links through the Commonwealth, and in other ways, with other Continents. So have other European countries. Together we can ensure that Europe plays in world affairs the part which the Europe of today is not at present playing. For a Europe that fails to put forward its full economic strength will never have the political influence which I believe it could and should exert within the United Nations, within the Western Alliance, and as a means for effecting a lasting détente between East and West; and equally contributing in every fuller measure to the solution of world's North-South problem, to the needs of the developing world.
The paragraph continues—because the foregoing words were written by a famous man:
Her Majesty's Government consider that events since the statement was made, and particularly the outcome of the Summit Conference of the Six on 1st and 2nd December, 1969, reaffirms the validity of the statement.
That is the major aim. I say to those people who want to re-write history that that document was written in the concept of the realisation that the Government had accepted the Treaty of Rome, the common agricultural policy and V.A.T. that went with it, the harmonisation of currency and social security benefits and, indeed, not the figure, but the idea of the long-term financing of the Market. I know that my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North is keen on quoting Lord George-Brown, but that was months ago—

Mr. Douglas Jay: That was in Brighton, not Scarborough.

Mr. Pannell: It does not matter whether it was Scarborough or Brighton. My right hon. Friend came out of the Government; and I think it is to his credit on this issue largely because there were certain things that he could not stand. I have approached privately no fewer than four former Ministers in the Cabinet for chapter and verse. What I understand is truth. It is no good a man saying, "No Cabinet of which I was a member did that". It is inherent in this document which I have quoted. When I went to the General Election of 1970 it was in the knowledge that we had accepted the Treaty of Rome, the C.A.P. and V.A.T. that went with it, and the harmonisation of currency and social security benefits. It is all in the document.
The only matter remaining was the terms. What are the terms? All that was left was sugar, on which Lord Campbell has expressed agreement, and it comes up for revision in 1973–74. In New Zealand 58 per cent. of the public opinion poll declared that the terms "could not have been bettered". My hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale shakes his head. Immediately after the vote in this debate I am going with a parliamentary delegation to New Zealand. Because I have got to face this, I have done a considerable amount of homework. I have got the results of the last public opinion poll. I know that my hon. Friend does not like public opinion polls. I do not like them very much, but, like my hon. Friend, I quote the figures which suit my own argument. I could quote statesmen in New Zealand on their feelings.

Mr. Norman Atkinson: Before my right hon. Friend leaves that point, he has repeated the remark that we have accepted the terms spelt out in the White Paper. Presumably, by "we" he means hon. Members on this side, but would he not accept that the highest policy-making authority in the Labour movement is its annual conference, and that the annual conference of the Labour movement has never accepted these terms and does not do so now?

Mr. Pannell: I would never use the word "we" in a concept which included my hon. Friend. I am speaking about things that had occurred before the annual conference. The General Election occurred before the annual conference. I am referring to the leadership of the party and to the document we have before us. I had thought that these things had been accepted when the election took place, and that we were now on the terms. However, I see that Mr. Speaker is looking at me with what would appear to be an accusatory eye, so I had better leave that point.
As I was saying, in effect the only matters at issue were sugar, New Zealand and the price of entry. The price of entry largely depends on the assumptions one starts with. I have heard reputable hon. Members on both sides give astronomical figures, ranging from £250 million to £1,000 million, and the more optimistic figure is always given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North.
I have only one point to make in connection with sovereignty, because I join with my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale in thinking that this is the gut issue. In 1964 I was asked as Minister to provide the materials for the housing drive and found the materials with which 400,000 houses could have been built in 1965. What stopped us? What stopped us was the financial policy of my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) who decided that we could not do it. Why could we not do it. It was because we had lost our sovereignty. The international bankers decided that we could not build 400,000 houses. My right hon. Friend knows that Labour Government foreign policy for six years was dominated by lack of sovereignty. It was overshadowed by Vietnam in order to propitiate Lyndon Johnson. This is not to depreciate my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton.
I understood this and I sympathised with it, but let no one tell me at any time that the Labour Government, with the best will in the world, had sovereignty. They did not, because they were running fifth in a six-horse race in Europe. My right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford has told us the tale of how as Chancellor of the Exchequer he went over to Europe and was kept in an ante-room while others discussed what they would do with us. If we enter the enlarged Community, we shall gain an accession of sovereignty, not lose sovereignty. We shall no longer be the sick man of Europe.
I feel that I have spoken too long. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] As the then George Brown said, going into Europe means more than the price of a slice of bacon. This is one of the great issues. We stand at one of the turning points of our history. Between the reigns of Elizabeth the First and Elizabeth the Second we have spawned our breed over five continents. We have fertilised the world. Under the shadow and protection of the British Royal Navy the infant United States grew to manhood. We fought two world wars, and dissipated our substance and bankrupted ourselves to buy time for the Americans to come into them. Here I would say to Senator Kennedy, in parenthesis, that before he starts speaking as he has done he should remember how

many American men lie at the bottom of the ocean because the Channel ports were denied them. We went right through the Industrial Revolution. In 1945 we had to dissipate an Empire, and the emerging nations grew up. They are all away from us now and, as Aneurin Bevan once said, we now have to learn to be great in other ways.
Now we are back where we belong. We can, if we wish, be a small red spot on the map—no longer red splashed over the globe—of 50 million people; a derisory number against the market that is open to us in Europe and in a world of power blocs of over 200 million people in the United States alone. If we fail to go in, we shall have a great many American takeover bids here. We have the Comecon in the East. And there is China. When I was a boy at school and sang missionary hymns, every fifth man was a Chinese—that is how big China was then. But the Chinese are very lusty and they have improved since then.
These are the realities. We can no longer go it alone. I do not want a British Chancellor of the Exchequer again to be kept in an anteroom while others decide our fate. I want us to be in at the decision-making, and I believe that the genious of the British people is so great that we cannot fail to make it felt. I do not take a gloomy view of our country. People at gatherings such as Labour Party conferences are sometimes bloody-minded, but they are pretty determined, and I have a deep respect for them.
It will be appreciated that it needs a great deal from me, after 50 years in the Labour Movement, to make this sort of speech now. On Thursday night, I shall be voting with some of the most decent and honourable men of my party. They will be decent and honourable men on the other side, but they will be accompanied into the Division Lobby by some of the terrible backwoodsmen on that side, so do not let anyone sneer about the company we keep. I do not go into the Division Lobby behind any Tories; I go in by my own right. I am a free man, an international Socialist, and a member of the Labour Party, in that order, and on Thursday night my priorities will be right.

6.37 p.m.

Mr. Jasper More: I should like to tell the right hon. Gentleman the


Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) how much I—and I am sure many other hon. Members—have enjoyed listening to him. I at once relieve his mind on one point when I say that I do not think that I shall be one of the "backwoodsmen" accompanying him on Thursday night. He will have to go into that particular Division Lobby without me.
It is not a very pleasant experience for one who has served his party for seven years as a Whip to find himself at difference with his party on a policy issue. My views have been published, and I do not want to weary the House by expatiating on them, but as I have not for ten years had an opportunity to speak in a Common Market debate, I should like in four sentences to give my reasons.
First, I fear that what is now an economic Community will become a political Community. Secondly, I do not want this country to enter any Community, political or economic, from which the White Commonwealth countries and the United States are excluded. Thirdly, I believe it unwise for us to link ourselves permanently with continental countries which differ totally from us in their constitutions, their political systems, their laws and their national traditions. Fourthly, I am unwilling that we should sign a treaty which, by transferring any degree of law-making or decision-making to a European authority, is bound to derogate from the power and prestige of our Parliament and, in particular, of this House of Commons. You will have noted, Mr. Speaker, from what I have, said that I am not really disputing the terms one way or the other.
Coming rather recently from the Whip's Office, may I make a brief reference to the nature of the vote next Thursday? I was pleased to hear the right hon. Member for Leeds, West say that he at any rate had no intention of being whipped into any Lobby. The country and many people in the House will have regretted that the Labour Party has not been able to follow the lead of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister—

Mr. William Hamilton: The defeat.

Mr. More: —but I would like to tell my own Chief Whip that if, by pressure on the other side, large numbers are

compelled to enter a Lobby which they would not want to enter, my Chief Whip may well have to suffer the indignity of having a confirmed anti-Marketeer in his own Lobby.
I have never liked the expression "anti" or "pro-Marketeer". The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in what I thought was one of his less charitable moments, described the anti-Marketeers as being Flat-Earthers. I find some difficulty in thinking of a single expression that really describes the pro-Marketeers, because they seem to fall into two groups corresponding to the allegiances that used to divide many of our villages in the old days.
On the one hand there was the Band of Hope and on the other the Unity of Oddfellows. The Band of Hope were those who were so filled with the beatific vision of the world to come that they could not really be bothered with such mundane things as having to die first or to get buried, while the Oddfellows though equally convinced of the certainty of life after death, really did think it was important to make provision for the funeral expenses and kept a sharp eye on the small print of the insurance documents brought round by the man from the "Pru." Were I eligible for membership of either of those groups my heart would certainly impel me towards the Band of Hope because, having taken this great and momentous step towards Western Europe, it seems logical to go the whole hog—European baptism by total immersion, a united federal Government, common foreign policy and the lot.
It is difficult to find entirely credible the posture of the Oddfellows who wish to insist on things like the veto, national identity, and so on. But I am certain that the Flat-Earthers, like myself, should on this issue back up the Oddfellows. It is a great step into Europe and, as the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) told us rather ponderously on Thursday, "Europe" is a curious expression for the geographical amalgam which is the European Economic Community. He did not seem to draw the only two worthwhile morals from his lecture. This geographical amalgam has twice appeared on the map of Europe—once in the Empire of Napoleon, which lasted six years, and ten centuries previously in the Empire


of Charlemagne which came to a rather sticky end not long afterwards in the reign of King Charles the Fat, possibly a rather different King Charles from the last one who reigned in Paris.
After listening to these debates for ten years I have come to the conclusion that the important thing is to pray that if we go into Europe things will come out all right. That being so, I hope that it will bring to an end one other argument to which we have listened—the argument whether the Community is inward- or outward-looking. All of us could agree that there is only one sensible thing to be in Europe, and that is upward-looking.
The argument which is now much less repeated than it was in 1961 is that of "The Off Shore Brigade". This, we used to be told, was the position of an island situated in a sea off the continental land mass which could not for some reason exist without going into economic decline unless it belonged to some Community, becoming what was rather strangely called an Off Shore island. Possibly the example of Japan has rather diminished the popularity of that argument.
What has been very strange, listening to the debates in 1971, has been the extent to which they are still being argued with the arguments of 1961. No one seems to have noticed that a lot of things have changed in the meantime. To begin with, we have listened to endless arguments as to whether the economic objectives will be achieved, but no one seems to consider whether those objectives are still valid.
We have undertaken certain economic obligations which we call the costs of entry in the intermediate period. It seems that we have done that in respect of the precise period when we do not wish to diminish our economic growth in any way. My party was elected in 1970 on a five-year programme to try to remedy as quickly as possible the blots which still disfigure our country—housing, poverty, the lower-paid, and all the other things that we know about. It seems rather regrettable that we should be embarking on a policy which will in any way restrict our growth in the early years.
What is strange now, although it was not strange in 1961, is that we still seem to be linked to a policy called "long-term economic growth". No one seems

to have paid any attention to what is going on in the United States, although that is a country which for years has had all the benefits which we are supposed to be getting when we go into Europe, in terms of prosperous industry, with a huge internal market, and so on. During the past ten years the United States has been through a level of growth which we in the next ten years hope to be going through. Their experience in some ways has not been very reassuring.
They began the 1960s with a number of social problems—industrial relations, race relations, crime, drug-taking, and pollution in all its forms—and finished the decade with all those problems in a more acute state than when they began it. It leads to the suspicion that far from being the product of poverty some of these things may be the product of affluence, except for pollution, which we know is the product of effluence. Even more remarkable than this is the economic state of the United States, which began the 1960s with not very many economic problems and has finished up the decade with, simultaneously, a balance of payments crisis, severe inflation and heavy unemployment.
I mention these matters because if it is true that over half our people—51 per cent.—still dislikes the prospect of the Common Market, it is rather important that expectations should not be raised too high, and that we should not add to the dislike of the 51 per cent. the disillusionment of the other 49 per cent.
These are not the reasons for doubting the relevance of the long-term policy, which are altogether more crude and materialistic. They are simply that when we reach a level such as has been reached in the United States, long-term growth as a policy makes no sense unless it is possible to target it on to particular objectives. For example, the United States, incredibly, has not solved the problem of poverty. It makes no sense to demand a policy of economic growth as such. We have to try and target our growth to the objectives that I have mentioned. I hope that within a measurable time we shall find ourselves at the economic level of the United States. The damage that we can do, and the damage that can be done in the United States—which is very real—is rapidly to exhaust the world's


physical assets, on which civilisation depends for not merely its prosperity but its survival. That is the importance of it. We need to launch out into a new realm of economic thinking. That leads me to the conclusion that the objectives of this policy are almost out-of-date. We could be said to be aiming at economic objectives which in the short term are unjust and in the long term are unreal.
I want to refer briefly to the international position which we are to adopt as a result of these policies. We are proposing to link ourselves with a continental grouping at a moment which appears to me to be singularly ill chosen in history. The international world has been in an astonishing state, ever since the last war, of deep freeze, with the two super Powers occupying apparently irremovable positions. But now new super Powers, China and Japan, may be emerging. Simultaneously, the deep freeze is thawing. Instead of a polar ice cap we have large icebergs detaching themselves and starting off on courses which cannot be foreseen or known in advance.
I have never been a passenger on an iceberg but I am sure that those hon. Members who have had that experience will agree with me that one should never choose a small or middle-sized iceberg but should be a passenger on a very big one indeed in face of the dangers of collision or crushing. So it seems a strange decision—to return from this chilly analogy to the warm reality of the accession treaty—that we should be joining a continental grouping whose defence interests cannot be the same as ours and which can never hope to become more than a semi-super Power. I stress, if we are going in, the importance of flat earthers like myself supporting the position achieved by the Prime Minister with President Pompidou—that decisions should only be taken by unanimous agreement when vital issues are at stake and that national identities should not be lost or national sovereignties eroded.
Finally, although he is not present to hear it, I make an appeal to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House. This is that we should not spend too long on the consequential legislation. We have wasted too much time in the past on the Common Market, and the American experience suggests that we may have

important things to do in this country and in this House before we get engulfed in the tidal wave of prosperity which the Common Market is to bring. I am advised by the learned Clerk that it is not out of order for a back bencher to put down a guillotine Motion, but I should be most unwilling, by thus pre-empting my right hon. Friend, in any way to ruffle the feathers of one under whom so many of my happy years in the Whips' Office were spent.

6.53 p.m.

Mr. Bruce Douglas-Mann: I am glad to have the opportunity to speak following the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr. More) because he has introduced a theme which has been missing from the debate to a considerable extent. This is the questioning of whether long-term economic growth is quite the desirable end that we have tended to assume it is. Like him, I am opposed to British entry but, also like him and like my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell), I wish we were going to have a free vote on this issue. I think that there will be little respect for those right hon. and hon. Members who go into a Lobby contrary to their convictions on this major question, and there can be little respect for the parties which force them to do so. If I understood the hon. Gentleman aright, he indicated that, if there were to be a Whip on the Opposition side, he, as an anti-Marketeer, might find himself in the Government Lobby nevertheless. I hope that is not what he intended to say. If it is, it shows that the Government's proposal for a free vote is as much of a sham as we suspect it to be.
Like others, I am not by any means convinced of the economic argument. I believe that, for a very long time, if not indefinitely, the majority of our people are going to be worse off as a result of entry. Whether or not the majority in the long term are going to be better off or worse off I am not qualified to assess, but I certainly have the gravest doubts about the social and political implications I want to see a substantial social change in this country and I believe that it will be infinitely more difficult to obtain that change in a large unit than in a small one.
Whatever gains there may be will be concentrated in those parts of the country which are already relatively rich—the South-East, the Midlands and London—because those areas are closer to the economic centre of gravity in Europe and they have the most concentrations of modern industries producing consumer goods. It is in the mass production of durable, semi-durable and immediately consumable goods that any benefit that does accrue from entry will come. It is in the production of goods for sale that the mass market is desirable and I believe that this will cause a shift in the pattern of our economy. It will cause a shift towards those industries which are producing the kind of goods which in terms of natural resources we can least afford to be producing—goods which are expensive in natural resources, such as minerals and energy, goods which produce great pollution when we dispose of them and which produce the maximum damage in their production.
It is alleged to be fashionable to talk about the ecological situation, about environmental pollution, but I think that it is probably unfashionable to take them very seriously as matters on which to determine serious political issues. I believe that the essential questions and problems which our children and grandchildren will face are not how to make enough colour television sets to equip the whole country or ways in which to ensure that there are enough material goods to go round. I believe we are in sight of solving those problems now, that it is possible, with the wealth which exists in this country at present, to eliminate poverty and all the social evils around us.
One of the great problems which will be faced by our children and grandchildren is the fact that the world's natural resources are being used up at a much faster rate than they can be reproduced, that we are, in the process of making and using more and more consumer goods, and disposing of them when we have finished with them, destroying the environment in which we live. The most important long-term effect of going into Europe is to accelerate that process. We may or may not get any economic benefits and advantages. We have heard assessments on one side or the other.

Figures have been quoted and disputed. I cannot decide finally whether there is likely to be a benefit in the sense that we are going to get a 3 per cent. or 4 per cent. growth rate to offset the substantial cost, but I am certain that the effects in the environmental respect are going to be seriously damaging.
The other major problem which our children will have to face is that the hungry part of the world is not going to be tolerant of being hungry indefinitely. We have here in Europe and in Australia and the United States pockets of wealth, but we have very large parts of the rest of the world whose relative poverty is rapidly increasing, and in many countries the standard of living remains virtually constant if it is not actually declining. It seems to me undeniable that a club, an association of wealthy countries, coming together to form a customs union to agree to trade between themselves on preferential terms, must necessarily be a source of damage to those parts of the world excluded.

Mr. David Mitchell: Is the hon. Gentleman trying to suggest that countries which are excluded from this grouping will suffer? If so, does not that include this country? Would not we suffer from being excluded?

Mr. Douglas-Mann: I do not think it is suggested in any part of the House that if we remain outside the Common Market we shall not be able to maintain a level of growth. I do not think that the hon. Member himself is suggesting that by remaining outside we should put ourselves in the situation of one of the under-developed countries where there is a real problem of starvation and of survival. That is the problem, and it is not just a question of generosity on our part in saying that we should be concerned about it. The world is not indefinitely going to tolerate the enormous differences which there are between the standards of life in rich countries such as our own and the standards which obtain anywhere in India, and in large parts of Asia, areas which, I may say, are completely excluded from any benefits of associate status by virtue of these negotiations, which must have the effect of causing greater poverty for those countries which are not within this trading bloc.
I say that not only for the reasons which have been set out by other speakers, such as my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor) and the hon. Member for Wembley, South (Sir R. Russell), but because of the detailed effects of particular forms of trade. After all, what is a customs union for? A customs union is to enable countries to have preferential, better terms of trade between themselves, so that other countries seeking to sell their goods within that union are at a disadvantage. This must have an adverse effect on the trade of those countries, particularly Asian countries which are developing manufacturing industries.

Mr. Laurance Reed: The hon. Member was saying that the European countries will be consuming natural resources much faster. Surely that will affect the terms of trade of countries in other parts of the world, simply because they are suppliers of the raw materials which, he says, will be running out.

Mr. Douglas-Mann: Indeed, the hon. Member is quite right: resources will be shifted from the under-developed countries to Europe where they will be consumed even faster.
It has been suggested that associate status will be an adequate benefit to offset the disadvantages of those other countries which gain associate status. I am sorry that the hon. Member for King's Lynn (Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler), who spoke a little earlier, is not still present. I had been waiting most anxiously to hear him, as a member of the executive committee of the Africa Bureau, say to what extent he disagrees with the assessment of the Africa Bureau, in a document sent to all hon. Members, that Britain's entry to E.E.C. will seriously worsen the trading opportunities of developing African countries. The hon. Member said on Friday that this was not published with the approval of the Executive Committee.
I had had every expectation that in his speech today he would have dealt with the very powerful argument presented in this document to the effect that, inevitably, African countries will be worse off in terms of trade than they are at the present time. I am most surprised that he did not mention it. Does he accept it? Britain's entry will certainly tend to create worse conditions for those

countries which are already in an acute state of deprivation. They will not put up with that situation indefinitely. The problem for future generations will be the demands of the people who are most deprived in a world where nuclear vengence is easy.
There will also be the problems of maintaining and of replacing natural resources consumed as the mass production of consumer goods accelerates. I urge the House to bear these questions very seriously in mind. There may be some economic advantages, but it may be that the disadvantages will be very much greater, but the questions which really matter are those questions of the long term. There will be economic ill-effects in the short term, everybody agrees; if there will be advantages they will be in the long term; but the great long-term question will be how to eliminate poverty in large parts of the world.
It is simply a question of whether we can afford to go on using up resources in producing cars and television sets at the rate we are. What we can afford is to concentrate on the production of better services, both public and private, better food and better amenities. Those are not wasteful of resources and are more important for real living standards; they will be marginally more difficult to produce inside the market than out. We need and can afford better houses, hospitals, and other services but as mass production in other industries will be increasing there will be comparative disadvantages for industries supplying houses and other services.
I have concentrated on these issues because they have been under emphasised in the debate so far. I have my fears, also, on the regional aspects, but similar fears have been expressed by many other hon. Members. I believe that such gains as there are will be in the south, and that the losses will be in those parts of our country least able to bear them. I represent a London constituency, but my constituency suffers from overcrowding by those who come to London under pressure of unemployment; but that, important as it is, is less vital than the other issues I have raised.
The effect of entry into Europe will, I believe, be damaging to the real, long-term interests of this country, and I hope


that on Thursday this Motion will be defeated.

7.6 p.m.

Mr. Peter Trew: It is a pleasure to be able to follow the hon. Member for Kensington, North (Mr. Douglas-Mann). We share an interest in housing, although we take widely different views, and we have together been studying housing in Germany. I hope that he will forgive me if I do not follow him in his interesting and original argument about the disadvantages of joining Europe.
I have never doubted that, given reasonable terms the long-term economic advantages would outweigh the disadvantages. I can produce no figures to prove that view, any more than those who disagree with me can produce figures to support their view. In the last analysis it is a matter of personal judgment and feeling. This was very well illustrated by the two letters in The Times on Friday, each signed by about 150 economists, one group of whom concluded that it would be to Britain's advantage to join, the other concluding that it would be to Britain's disadvantage. All I would say is that I would be happy in five years' time to meet the prophets of economic doom and compare notes with them. I should be happier still in ten years' time and very happy in 15 years' time, because I think that the benefits will increase as time goes by.
Certainly there will be transitional problems, not least for those on fixed incomes. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services on Friday repeated the Government's pledge that State pensions and other benefits would be reviewed periodically to keep pace with increases in the cost of living. He hinted that pensioners who came within the tax net would be helped by adjustments in the tax system. He hinted at it, but I sensed no commitment on the part of the Government. He identified another class of pensioners who came in the twilight area between supplementary benefit level and the taxable income level. He confessed that it would be difficult to find a way of helping them and that their best hope lay in a general abatement of inflation.
With great respect to my right hon. Friend, who is a most compassionate

man, this is not really good enough. Speaking to pensioners about the Common Market one finds that many of them take the view that, while they themselves will not benefit, their children and their grandchildren will. This is a generous view and it would be wrong of us to presume on their generosity. If any section of the population is to be asked to make sacrifices for the future, the last to be asked are those who have made their contribution to society and have retired. I hope, therefore, that the Government will put forward coherent proposals for safeguarding against any increases in the cost of living all those on fixed incomes, whether their pensions be derived from the State or from private sources.
In general, such reservations as I have about entry are not on economic but on political grounds. It has certainly been my experience—I think that many right hon. and hon. Members will confirm this—that in constituents' letters, apart from an understandable concern about the cost of living, it is the political consequences and not the economic consequences that loom large. Constituents express the view that we would be handing over to foreigners everything that we have built up in a thousand years, that we would be run from Brussels and would lose our national indentity. Those are valid fears, because political unity is no vague possibility. It is one of the long-term aims of the Treaty of Rome, albeit without timetable or compulsion. The cause of political unity is espoused with enthusiasm, if not with fervour, by many in Europe and by some pro-Marketeers in this country.
There are two schools of thought on the way in which political unity might be achieved. On the one hand, there are those who say that the way to achieve it is to set up common institutions and to work through them to evolve common policies. That is a typically continental view; it does not appeal to me and I doubt whether it would commend itself to the British people. We have seen in our time an example of the folly of trying to impose common political institutions prematurely on unwilling partners, in the break-up of the Central African Federation.
On the other hand, there are those who say that the way to achieve political


unity is to collaborate wherever appropriate and when common policies emerge to set up the institutions to serve them. I understand that this is the way favoured by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and by President Pompidou, and that this is something on which they agreed in Paris. But by whichever path we advance towards political unity—and I hope that it will be by way of common policies and not by way of common institutions—there are some ways in which the speed of advance towards political unity will be slowed down and other ways in which it is likely to be speeded up.
The factors that would tend to slow it down are threefold. First, there is the near-impossibility of making any significant move without the willing consent of all the partners. The pace of advance is likely to be the pace of the least willing. Secondly, there is the plain fact of the number of countries involved. It is difficult to imagine in the short term, or even the medium term, close political unity amongst ten very different countries. Thirdly, there is the innate skill of the British in looking after themselves. This is an attribute which foreigners recognise in us more clearly than we do ourselves. I claim no originality in identifying these factors. They are widely referred to and are well entrenched in the conventional wisdom on the Common Market; but they are not the whole story, because there are factors which would tend to speed up the pace of political advance, and these are inherent in the very nature of supranational politics.
First, there is the danger that, as politicians and civil servants get caught up in the glamour of careers on the European scale, they will tend to force the pace of advance without necessarily reflecting the wishes of the people they represent. Secondly, because of the sheer complexity of the administrative problems, there is the danger that the bureaucrats will wield disproportionate power and be insufficiently answerable to political control. We are told by way of reassurance that there are fewer bureaucrats in Brussels than there are civil servants in the Scottish Office. Long may it remain so!
If we allowed the factors that tend to speed up political development to prevail over those which tend to slow it down, the British people could conceivably, as

many fear, find themselves on a bandwagon travelling in a direction not of their choosing and at a speed which they could not control. This will require great vigilance on the part of the House of Commons.
One of the most important rôles of Britain, with her accumulated political wisdom, will be to act as a restraining influence on those who want to hurry the pace along the path to political unity. Political unity in itself, if it evolves naturally over the years in accordance with the genuine wishes of the member countries, is no bad thing, but any attempt to force the pace could be profoundly damaging and lead to the break-up of the E.E.C.
Having acknowledged that these political risks exist, the question we must now ask ourselves is this. On balance, do the long-term advantages of joining Europe outweigh the disadvantages? It is my view that the advantages unquestionably outweigh the disadvantages, and that the political risks are well within our capacity to deal with. I therefore believe that we must go ahead and take up the membership that is offered, and do so confident in the belief that the great and unchanging qualities of the British people will be more than enough not only to meet the challenge but to derive great and lasting benefit from it.

7.16 p.m.

Mr. J. Grimond: I hope that the Government will pay attention to the plea made by the hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Trew) for the pensioners when we go into the Common Market. I hope later in my speech to deal with some interesting points which he made about the political future of Europe.
We are here to express our individual views upon the large and general questions which arise at the prospect of going into Europe, but we are also here to represent the needs and the hopes of our constituents. I want to deal straight away with a matter of crucial importance to my constituents—the ultimate fisheries policy.
I did not understand what the Minister of Agriculture said on Thursday night, but I will not pursue that because since then the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has spoken. He knows the situation of Orkney and Shetland and he


knows that, by itself, the six-mile limit is unacceptable. He gave me an assurance last summer that the position of Shetland is fully understood and has reiterated on several occasions that he is determined to protect it. I believe that the Chancellor of the Duchy is an honest man and a skilful negotiator. His assurances on this point play an important part in my intention to vote for entry into the E.E.C. Today he told us that we shall either maintain the status quo, which is acceptable, or that the legitimate interests of the fisheries industry will be protected. He assured us that he has not agreed to go back from the 12- to the six-mile limit. I make no apology for putting again on record the situation in my constituency. I trust that by so doing I shall strengthen the Chancellor's hand in the negotiations still to come.
Orkney and Shetland need a 12-mile limit. This is not simply a negotiating point. I have no desire to exaggerate the situation, but it is essential to the well-being of the counties as a whole and perhaps literally vital to certain islands in the Shetlands, where it is conceivable that if there is a serious blow to fishing the population will dwindle and disappear.
To talk about historic rights of other nations is a red herring. The historic rights of the other nations are not particularly historic, and they are not important. They amount to the right of the Norwegians to fish for basking sharks and dogfish and the right of the Dutch and Germans to take herring in a limited area off Sumburgh Head and Fair Isle. We are perfectly prepared to let them go on doing this, and for probably every other European to do the same. There are few more international industries than fishing, and those who take part in it are not lacking in a fellow feeling towards other countries.
What we are not prepared to do is to have the area between the six- and 12-mile limits fished by all and sundry, so that stocks are depleted—particularly stocks of white fish. In 1970 of the white fish caught round Shetland and landed in Shetland and elsewhere 38 per cent. came from between the six- and 12-mile limits, and of the herring landed in Shetland 44 per cent. came from between the six- and 12-mile limits. In 1971, so far,

35 per cent. to 40 per cent. of white fish came from between the six- and 12-mile limits, and about 27 per cent. of the herring. Therefore, it can be seen how important it is to preserve the limit.
Although I am a pro-Marketeer of long standing if we were not to reach a satisfactory solution on this aspect—although I believe that in other ways entry will benefit this country and the North of Scotland—I should have to reconsider my decision about our entry. Some people will complain that I appear to be prepared to put Shetland fishing before the good of Europe, or even Scotland. My answer to that is twofold. First, I make no bones about now having a certain hesitation about some aspects of the E.E.C. These hesitations arise largely from the development of the E.E.C. without us. It would have developed differently and better had we gone in at the start. I do not want to exaggerate, because in some ways the E.E.C. has lived up to my expectations. I would deny that it is inward-looking. I would only say that it is not dealing with some problems which are of prime importance to this country.
My faith that we should still go into Europe is founded on the belief that we shall give it a new impetus. I regard the decision on fisheries as a crucial indication whether Europeans are really sympathetic to our position. If, for instance the E.E.C. is serious about regional development—and that is a matter that causes concern all over the House—it will surely not destroy a major factor in that development, and there is no doubt that not only in Scotland but in Northern Europe as a whole fishing is a major factor in development. We are not asking the E.E.C. to give up anything; we are simply asking it to take note of this very important factor in the whole life of the north. It would be a sign of ill-will in Brussels if they were to proceed further with a policy which might be destructive of communities with no alternative way of life.
Secondly, I have always objected to the argument that some small marginal benefit to a great number of people is sufficient reason for serious damage to a smaller number. The only communities in Shetland which have kept their population for 100 years are the fishing communities,


and three of them—Skerries, Whalsey and Burra—are almost wholly dependent on fishing. It is not only a question of the income which comes to Scalloway and Lerwick; the building up of other areas in Shetland and Orkney depends largely on fishing. The population of the Faroes has gone up from 23,000 to 37,000 largely due to fishing. Successive Governments have given encouragement and finance, the Shetlanders have committed themselves to building larger boats, and about 16 processing factories are in operation. To cut off supplies of fish at the moment would be a serious betrayal. I must also impress upon the Minister that not only the economic aspects of fishing are important; the social and sociological aspects are also extremely important. Fishing is the one industry which seems to be able to attract and keep people in a small community. We have not yet found another industry which will do this.
I accept that we are here as representatives and not as delegates. I also believe that in a matter such as this, while we have to weigh claims against each other, one of the arguments that we have to weigh seriously in the balance is the future of the people who send us here. I make no apology for saying that.
I am unhappy at the way in which this debate has been conducted. I cannot see that the issue has ever been put so clearly as to be understood by the ordinary person. I accept the difficulties of a referendum, but whether we should not have had one I am not at all sure. A General Election is out of the question, for reasons which have been cogently put by members of the Labour Party. It must cover a variety of issues. But I cannot clear from the back of my mind the fact that the Prime Minister has given the impression that he would not go into Europe unless there was a majority of people in favour of it. I cannot cross my heart and say that I am wholly convinced that there is such a majority. Like my leader, I do not remember the Labour Party, when in Government, saying that we would have to have an election before going in. I feel that at the moment we are not showing up democracy in this country in a very clear or favourable light.
What conclusion do I draw from this? It is not that we should wash our hands

of the matter but that at this stage we should be frank about our reasons for going into Europe and our expectations of what will happen.
I find myself in some disagreement with some of those who, like myself, on balance want to go in. To begin with, I reject entirely the view that bigger is necessarily better. Many of the most pressing problems in the world are created simply because things are too big. People groan under too big business, too big cities, too much centralisation—and perhaps too big political units are one of the troubles of mankind. It has been said that those who stay out of the Community in small units will suffer. I cannot honestly say that when I go to Austria, Switzerland or Sweden I find that those countries have suffered. I do not want to go to the other extreme and say that smaller is always better. It is possibly true that this country could not become Sweden, Switzerland or Austria. By gaining a large home market some industries certainly will benefit. Perhaps we can all benefit, but there is no certainty about that. There is no magic about bigness as such.
I am not particularly impressed by statistics about growth. I have never seen the strength in the arguments about growth. I do not want growth in arms or useless production. Growth seems to me to be a matter of quality, and difficult to assess. I am not sure that even in bulk growth the Common Market will forge ahead as is expected. It is vital to know how we are to use the opportunities of which we all speak when we go into Europe.
On this subject the Government have said far too little. Part of the Foreign Secretary's speech—and, indeed, part of the speech of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster—was devoted to reassuring people that nothing much would happen politically, at least in the short run. The Foreign Secretary said:
Decisions on the political evolution of the Community are not for now, even for tomorrow, but for the future."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st October, 1971; Vol. 823, c. 921.]
That seems to me to be again advancing towards the future by walking backwards. The decision that we are about to take this week is a political and not solely an economic one. I feel that if it is worth taking at all, it is because we believe—


or at least I believe—that Europe is an important political as well as economic conception. If we do not believe that, and are not going into Europe hoping to make it more effective politically, I doubt whether we shall feel it is worth going in at all.

Mr. Rippon: I share the right hon. Gentleman's sentiment. I would not like to be numbered among those who think that we are joining a static Community. The Community will evolve by consent of all the members, though I would hope, like the right hon. Gentleman, that it will evolve towards a more closely political unity.

Mr. Grimond: But are the Government going to press for this? We are going to change the balance in Europe. Presumably, we are going to be an important new factor. What is to be our line about this? Let us take finance and currency. We cannot have a policy on finance and currency which is only economic. These are important political aspects, and we must have machinery for dealing with them. Are the Government to produce a plan calling for a new form of discussion in Europe? It is more and more apparent that the decision-making process in Europe must be altered. If one looks at the response to America at the moment one sees that it is fragmented, slow and ineffective.
Are the Government going in with some view about the way in which decision-making in Europe can be expedited, improved and, above all, democratised? The hon. Member for Dartford was right to draw attention to the danger that unless we have ideas on this subject such decisions will be left to bureaucrats. In the long run, that will not do. In persuading the country to go into Europe it is up to the British Government to tell the people what part they will play when they get in.
The most pressing problems in the world do not involve the common agricultural policy. They are such matters as nuclear war, poverty, inflation, pollution, alienation from that industrial system and that whole set of industrial and urban problems which makes New York unmanageable. It is no good thinking that it will be possible to build a satisfactory New York on the Rhine.

Equally, the problems cannot be dealt with by single countries. They can be dealt with to some extent on a European basis. However, they are not being dealt with in the E.E.C. The Secretary of State for Social Security told us on Friday that the Treaty of Rome has little to say about social security and health care. The British Government have an opportunity to influence the course of events here, as they have in terms of regionalism. The regional policies of Brussels are very sketchy. But they must know what they want.
It is also the Government's obligation to make it clear to the people, at any rate once a decision to go in has been taken, why exactly they are going in. Are they simply hoping for some impetus in economics, or have they an idea of the contribution that they will make to the economic and political future of Europe?
I accept that British sovereignty will be impaired. It is misleading of Ministers to pretend that it will not be. However, that is one of the good points about going into Europe. Our sovereignty is already impaired in a hundred different ways. A powerful example was given by the right hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell). I also believe that Europe has a cultural and political vitality which can be immensely important. I do not deny that our sovereignty is and will be impaired but I believe that if we are to have any progress in re-asserting the European idea and, within that, the British idea in the context of the world, it has to be done through some wider grouping. I see no other grouping for this than Europe.
Countries like Scotland and areas like Orkney and Shetland may be better able to play their part, express their needs, and make known their personalities in a European context—along with such countries as Norway, Ireland and Denmark—than they are now under the shadow of London. This is a very centralised country. By going into Europe I hope that we shall decentralise to some extent.
These are the hopes which make me a European. They are hopes which can be realised only by positive action. I reject the negative view that we should go into Europe because we cannot think


of anything else to do. There are plenty of other things that we can do, but they are not so attractive as going into Europe. I reject the view that we are finished if we do not go in. I also reject the view that our troubles will be solved simply by joining a larger market. It is worth joining the E.E.C. only if we have a clear conception of the sort of Europe and the sort of Britain that we want, coupled with a clear determination to tackle the relevant problems of the world on a European basis.

7.33 p.m.

Wing Commander Sir Eric Bullus: It may be that the House and the country are becoming a little bored with Common Market debates. That does not cast any reflection on the sincerity of hon. Members who have spoken or who have yet to speak in this debate. I speak in church sometimes, and I never open any address without remembering the advice of an old mentor who said to me, "Remember, no souls are saved after the first five minutes." It is my firm belief that no votes will be changed after six days of debate.
As all the arguments have been deployed, it is not my intention to reiterate any of them. However, I am grateful for the opportunity briefly to state my personal position for the record and to indicate why I have always been opposed to Britain's entry into the Community and why, reluctantly, I have to go against the party line.
When the Treaty of Rome was published 11 or 12 years ago, I read it and opposed it from that moment. It has not been amended since. In February last year, when the House debated the last Government's White Paper, I tabled an Amendment saying,
…and at end insert, 'having studied carefully the White Paper and all the many adverse implications of entry into the Community, decides to withdraw Britain's application forthwith.'
Mr. Speaker King refused to select my Amendment, and I was not called in two subsequent debates.
The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) has quoted from his election address, and I make no apology for referring to my own address. I wrote:

Although the question of Britain's entry into the European Economic Community is not a party matter, I have always been against entry, and I personally shall continue strongly to oppose entry.
The main arguments revolve round our sovereignty and the terms. I do not like the terms. They are demanding, excessive, and more in line with the crippling reparations required of a country defeated in war. Membership will mean the end of cheap food for the country, and I am wedded to the policy of buying food in the cheapest market while, at the same time, assisting our own people in the British Commonwealth.
However, for me, the terms are incidental to my detestation of the Treaty of Rome. There can be no doubt that the ultimate end of the Treaty of Rome is federation, unification or a merging of the members of the Community. The honest pro-Marketeers recognise and admit this. We heard it from the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond). We heard it from my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Mr. Trew). They recognise it. I am bitterly opposed to it. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is a dedicated European. I respect his views. I expect the same respect for mine. I recognise that he has given the party a free vote.
When the Treaty was first published, the first President, Walter Hallstein, said:
We are not in business to promote tariff preferences, to establish a discriminatory club, to form a larger market to make us richer or a trading bloc to further our commercial interest. We are not in business at all: we are in politics.
Since then, there has been much talk and some confusion on the issue of sovereignty—especially from the Government Front Bench. In a Written Parliamentary Answer on 22nd June last, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said:
President Pompidou and I agreed that decisions in the Community should in practice be taken by unanimous agreement when vital national interests of any one or more Members are at stake."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd June, 1971; Vol. 819, c. 264.]
On that same day, newspapers reported the Bonn Foreign Minister Walter Scheel as indicating that "classic national relations" would not be allowed. He added:
Our aim remains a European Government after expansion through British entry. The


argument over a United States of Europe or a Federal Europe is one of words. A European Government will take decisions on common policies and will be subject to a European Parliamentary control.
That German view is very definite.
The disadvantages of joining the Community are factual and any benefits are purely speculative.
It is all too obvious that entry into the Community will have vital consequences for the people of this country. Almost invariably I am against the use of the referendum, but, the consequencies of our decision being so vital, I am convinced that the people should be given the opportunity to indicate their wish, even at this late stage, because I believe that the subsequent debates, if we do sign the Treaty of Rome, will take a long time. I still think that there is the opportunity to consult the people with a referendum.
There is apparent confusion about what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said or intended to convey at the election, but there is widespread belief that the people were to be consulted after negotiation and before entry by the signing of the Treaty. A General Election is not the answer, for the question cuts across all parties. The referendum, to my mind, is a solution which would satisfy all, and I hope that this still may be done.
It has been pointed out that if an M.P. dies during the term for which he is elected power goes back to the electorate for them to use to elect someone else, as it does at the end of the term. Therefore, to my mind, if an M.P. supports the giving away of that power to foreigners, or to anyone else, he betrays that trust. In fact, he betrays his country. Every sacrifice of national sovereignty is derogation of the power of the electorate. I know that some of my hon. Friends do not agree with me, but I have the distressing duty of voting against my own Party, and I feel that I should be allowed to give my views. Therefore, to my mind, the people should be consulted, and a referendum is the way.
There are those who say that a Member of Parliament is elected to exercise his own judgment on matters which come before Parliament, and there are others who say that an M.P. should represent the majority view of his constituents. I am happy that I can fulfil both of those

considerations. I am bitterly opposed to entry and I am satisfied that the vast majority of my constituents are against entry. This is confirmed by my postbag which is overwhelmingly against.
I recognise that this may not be so with my party political executive, although I have no official indications, and I recognise that my future in this House may thereby be at risk; but I owe it to this House, to my constituents and, not least, to myself that I vote as my judgment and conscience dictate. Once the decision to enter is taken and the Treaty is signed, we cannot reverse the decision. Future Parliaments will be bound. Contrary to all past history in our unwritten constitution, we shall have renounced sovereignty from that moment.
In 1940, in the darkest days for France, Britain offered union to her. She refused. Perhaps she was right. Today I believe that we should renounce any loss of sovereignty and should seek to continue the national independence we have so long enjoyed.

7.44 p.m.

Mr. Harry Ewing: This is the first time that I have had the honour to addressing this House, and I crave the indulgence and tolerance customary on such occasions.
I have the honour to succeed, as Member for a Stirlin and Falkirk Burghs, the late Malcolm Stirling who I know was held in high regard by hon. Members on both sides of this House. Malcolm MacPherson was a quiet, retiring type of person whose main interest in politics was education, but I should be failing in my duty both to my constituents and to this House if I did not comment that his prime concern was his constituency. No higher tribute could be paid to the late Malcolm MacPherson.
The constituency which I represent is made up of three areas: the county town of Stirling, Falkirk, and the very fast expanding town of Grangemouth.
The county town of Stirling is a mixture of industry and of tourism. While the new emerging Stirling University is not itself in the constituency, the county town lends its name to this famous university. Its industry is light industry, and its tourism has brought it fame in that it is now known as the "Gateway to the Highlands".
Falkirk, if I could portray a picture of it, is solely an iron town, being the home of iron founding in Scotland and, to a large extent, in Great Britain. It speaks volumes for its iron-founding firms that they have managed to modernise their plant and machinery, and there is now situated in Falkirk one of the most modern, up-to-date foundries in Europe.
Grangemouth, whose name will be added to the title of the constituency after the next General Election, is well known both inside and outside this House as the centre of the oil industry in Scotland. It possesses many more industries, of course—saw mills, whisky distilling and bottling—and the docks are among the most modern in Great Britain.
There are industries in Grangemouth for which we are grateful, because, for a very long time indeed, it has been relatively easy to gain employment in my constituency. But this picture is changing rapidly. There was a time in our history when we considered that the problem which related solely to Scotland, namely, the regional problem, was being solved. Without wanting to be controversial in this, my maiden speech, I must make the point that the unemployment figures in Scotland last week clearly indicated that the regional problem from which we suffer is far from being solved.
This brings me to the point that I want to make about the Common Market. I have just contested a by-election. One hon. Gentleman today said that he had held 71 meetings in his constituency. I claim—I am sure that hon. Members will respect my claim—to have been closer to the electorate in the last six to 12 weeks than many hon. Members in this House by virtue of having contested this by-election. I want to be perfectly honest with the House. It was very difficult to get people to discuss the Common Market because of the domestic issues with which Scotland is faced at the present time. But, when I was successful in getting people to discuss the Common Market, I found that there was fear and apprehension about the future should Great Britain enter Europe. That fear is exemplified in the belief that nothing within the terms of the Treaty of Rome would be sufficient to solve the regional problem from which Scotland suffers.
It is true that those who run industry, particularly in Grangemouth, are in favour of entry. I should be dishonest if I did not make that point. But the vast majority of my constituents express grave fear and concern that Scotland would be a periphery nation of Europe and that, indeed, we would become Europe's bedroom in that people would only live and sleep in Scotland and would have to go to Europe to obtain work.
I sincerely believe that this issue takes precedence over the question of prices. There is, of course, grave fear and apprehension about the effect on prices should Britain enter Europe. The common agricultural policy, which basically alters the system that we employ for determining our food prices, can only increase prices beyond all recognition, and during the by-election which I contested housewives, without exception, expressed that fear and apprehension.
There is also the grave question of the free movement of capital and labour. I have always been opposed to Britain's entry into Europe against the background of the Treaty of Rome. I am not anti-Europe, nor are the people in Scotland in general, or the people in my constituency in particular. Our horizons stretch much further than the geographical boundaries of our country. Indeed, we are proud that many great Scots have left our shores and travelled to the four corners of the globe and shared their wisdom and knowledge to make this world a better place in which to live. But, having said that, I must tell the House that there is fear and apprehension that we would become a periphery nation, that we would merely be Europe's bedroom.
I think that if this House, on Thursday night, were to vote in favour of entry, as I concede seems likely, we would be making a grave error of judgment. If Britain said "No" now, Europe would have to rethink its future, and I am convinced that from that rethink would emerge policies which would be acceptable both to this House and to the country as a whole.
It is vitally important that we take the nation with us when we make such a momentous decision as this, and the evidence before us is clearly that the people of this country are not with us on this issue. The knowledge that has


been gleaned by ordinary people from the pamphlets that have been published is limited. I do not know, and I should not want to venture a guess, whether that has been deliberate or otherwise, but I know that the people of this country require much more knowledge, and much more background material on which to base their judgment, before we can expect them to judge this issue rationally.
My appeal is that we should sit down and give ourselves more time, and I am with the hon. and gallant Member for Wembley, North (Sir E. Bullus) on this. In the enabling legislation that is to come, and in the debates that will take place to enact it, the opportunity should not be lost to consult the people so that we have a clear indication of their will on this very important matter.
I have already referred to the C.A.P. The V.A.T. is another measure which is giving cause for concern to the people whom I represent. Whichever way the by-election result in which I was involved is viewed, one thing that is clear is that there was a massive majority against entry into the Common Market. Of the three candidates, only one campaigned on the basis that Britain should enter the Common Market, and he gathered only 7,000 votes, while 30,000 votes were cast for the other two candidates, both of whom contested the by-election on an anti-Market platform. Despite the fact that the Common Market was not a major issue in the by-election, I believe that those figures give a clear indication of people's views, and I repeat that it would be a grave error of judgment on our part if we were to ignore public feeling on this great issue with which we are concerned.
I have enjoyed listening to the debate since it began last Thursday. I am conscious of the fact that I am present in the House of Commons at a time when history is in the making. I am proud, indeed, to have the opportunity to play a part in that history-making, and I thank right hon. and hon. Members for the kind and courteous attention which they have paid to me this evening. I know that on future occasions, which I hope will be quite numerous, the reception may not be as quiet and as helpful as that I enjoyed this evening, but I sincerely thank all

right hon. and hon. Members for the kind way in which they have received me tonight.

7.55 p.m.

Mr. Simon Wingfield Digby: During my time in the House I have had the opportunity of congratulating quite a number of maiden speakers, but it gives me real pleasure to congratulate the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Ewing) on the way in which he has acquitted himself this evening. We heard a well-phrased speech, delivered with much moderation, and we look forward to hearing the hon. Gentleman again.
The hon. Gentleman spoke of his predecessor. We were very glad to hear the tribute that he paid to the late Malcolm MacPherson, a tribute which we all wish to second.
The hon. Gentleman spoke, too, of his constituency, and told us that it had a combination of light industry and tourism, and was also connected with whisky. It is the ambition of my constituency to get more light industry and tourism, but, alas, we cannot distil whisky.
Of its nature, this debate has to be something like an "explanation of vote", something that we have had to get used to when we have attended assemblies in Europe. Sometimes we find it rather difficult to get accustomed to it, but it has one advantage—that it can last for only five minutes. I am afraid that I shall not be able to keep within that length of time.
I, too, have been in touch with my constituency. I have held 20 meetings there. I am well aware of the views of the electorate, and I have come away from those meetings with the feeling that I have the majority of my constituents behind me in deciding to vote to go into Europe.
There are many ways in which we can look at the problem that we are debating this evening. The point that I start with is the way in which, since the end of the Second World War, European institutions have multiplied. The E.E.C. is only one facet of a fairly intricate system of international institutions. I think that there has been too much tendency in this debate to speak as though the decision about entry is something in vacuum,


something that it might have been in the old days, something that it might have been in the days of the Zollverein, with M. Pompidou playing the rôle of Bismarck.
That is not the case. Already this country and this House send delegates to three European Assemblies—the Council of Europe, Western European Union, and the North Atlantic Assembly. The decision on Thursday is about whether we should send delegates to a fourth assembly—the European Parliament—about which many of us in this House know all too little. Those who have discussed it with members who attend know that it is somewhat more technical in nature, and that its debates do not range as wide as those to which we are accustomed in the Council of Europe at Strasbourg.
I have been a little perturbed during this debate to find that there are what seem to me to be rather doubtful ideas about the way in which the institutions of the Community work. The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) spoke as though it was for the Commission in Brussels to make decisions on taxation which would affect the whole of the Community. That is very far from being the case. The important thing to realise that it is the Council of Ministers—and Ministers will be fully accountable to the House—which has to make the important decisions, and, rightly or wrongly, the European Parliament has very little power. In my opinion, it is too early for direct elections to that Parliament and perhaps it is early days to give it further powers.

Mr. Arthur Lewis: I had hoped that the hon. Gentleman would go further and confirm, as the Chancellor of the Duchy has done, that once the Council of Ministers has reached a decision, which is not even known to this House before or during discussion, that decision is not alterable or amendable in this House. Surely that is not democracy.

Mr. Digby: The point is, surely, that these decisions have to be unanimous. The Motor Show is going on at present. It has been said that the E.E.C. is like a motor car with a very fine engine but even better brakes, and that perhaps the brakes are too good for the motor car. It will be far harder to get new decisions

through than for decisions which we do not like to be taken.
As I said, we are not discussing this matter in a vacuum. We are already members of many European institutions. We are members of N.A.T.O. and O.E.C.D. Even the transport ministers of Europe have their own organisation. If we join the Common Market, those contacts will become closer. When one goes to Strasbourg—

Mr. Arthur Lewis: If one gets the chance.

Mr. Digby: —as many hon. Members have done, and takes part in debates at the Council of Europe, one finds very little difference between the points of view of those who come from Common Market countries and those who do not.
I am surprised that there has not been more talk in this debate about the E.F.T.A. Annual Report for 1970, although my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy mentioned it. I believe that in this we find the key to an awful lot of problems. It is certainly a very heartening report, and shows that inter-E.F.T.A. trade has increased again during 1970. The first thing that strikes one from this Report is that our trade with the other two applicants is only about a third of our total trade with E.F.T.A. and our trade with the non-applicants is two thirds. Our trade with Austria and that with Finland each increased by 27 per cent. Our trade with Sweden increased by 20 per cent.
But the Six have now said that they do not wish to re-erect any tariff barriers and that these countries will get the full benefit in the reduction of barriers after the date of entry. It might be said—this point was almost argued the other day at Question Time by the hon. Member for Dudley (Dr. Gilbert)—that one could have it all and not get hooked. One could have that argument, but it would not work out like that.
Although we shall be joining a Community of ten, we shall in effect get all the advantages of an industrial free trade area of no fewer than 16. When we add to this the associated States, about whom an hon. Member opposite the hon. Member for Kensington, North (Mr. Douglas-Mann) was a little sceptical, one sees that


we will be joining a fairly large Community.
The outlook is not very promising for the others with whom we trade outside E.F.T.A. and the E.E.C. In 1970, our exports to the United States increased by 4·1 per cent., but our imports increased by the same amount. With the new American restrictions, the prospects them do not look very promising. We get a similar picture when we consider the other outside States.
For my constituency, the position is fairly satisfactory. Unhappily, fishing in West Dorset does not play the important rôle that it used to in the old days, but it is of importance. I was very glad that the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) stressed that we need a 12-mile limit. The difference between his constituency and mine is that mine is very much nearer the French Fishermen who have to come across the Channel. We really need this protection and I hope that my right hon. Friend will be very tough in this matter.
Otherwise, I believe that it will be in the interests of my constituents, in regard to farming, that we should go in, that the farmers of Dorset will do better. As for the smaller industries, like ropes, nets and twines and a very modern industry, fibre glass weaving, I believe that we are well situated to take advantage of the new markets in Europe.
Lastly—a point which I and others have raised at Question Time and otherwise—there is the problem of those on small fixed incomes. There are many retired people in my constituency, and it is not sufficient to say that old-age pensions will be raised if and when the cost of living goes up. They need additional help. The obvious solution is some form of taxation relief such as the age allowance, but I am told that that will be abolished and that something else will take its place.
I appeal to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer—many hon. Members have approached me about this—to say something on this point, to give some hope to those people who have been very altruistic in their approach to the problem of entry, and to promise them some taxation concession if they face a rising cost of living.
I have long believed that this is the right thing for Europe. I have attended many debates in the Council of Europe and elsewhere about the future of Europe. The conclusion always is that some further drawing together in the economic sphere is overdue. I believe that the Europeans are on the march and I shall be very sorry to see Great Britain in the rôle of straggler. If we are prepared to join in that march to a higher standard of living in Europe this country will reap a full reward.

8.7 p.m.

Mr. Ronald Brown: I am sure that the hon. Member for Dorset, West (Mr. Wingfield Digby) will forgive me if I do not follow his arguments too closely, since I want to keep my remarks fairly brief. But I would follow one of his major points—that those of us who have consistently considered that the future prosperity of this country could be best served by joining our fellow Europeans have seen very little evidence produced to persuade us to the contrary.
Very few alternatives have been canvassed. I can recall only one—that of a North Atlantic Free Trade Area. This was the great issue about three years ago for those who are terming themselves anti-Marketeers. I argued then and I still argue that it was unacceptable to me primarily because I object to this country joining any grouping in which it will have a subordinate rôle. This is the great value of our joining Europe, that we will be on equal terms with our partners.
I believe that our joining the enlarged Community will be a great political advantage not only to our own country or to Europe but to the world as well. European influence in the world is particularly necessary today, as other nations are developing and taking their place in world affairs. Europe's history and expertise can play a particularly big part in helping to maintain the peace of the world.
One hopes, as always, that one day we will talk of the whole of Europe. I hope that Europe will eventually include East and West, but, as things stand, it is clear that the Eastern Europeans want a common, or home, market with a substantial base of their own, albeit dominated by the Soviet Union. Nevertheless, they have acceded to the very point that is the basis


of this debate, which is the need for a larger market.
Chancellor Willy Brandt is making great efforts to establish a detente with the East. It is to be hoped that this will assist towards the eventual development of one Europe. So far, however, his efforts represent only a scratch on the surface of detente, and we will have to wait perhaps a considerable time to translate our hopes into reality.
In terms of technology, there is the clearest evidence that we need to become part of the European scene. We need a European approach to advanced technology and particularly to research and development. It will become ever more impossible for Britain to go it alone and the evidence shows that we are unable, with our resources, both economic and manpower, to launch out unilaterally into advanced technology, be it in space, aircraft, computers or synthetics.
When the Labour Party were in government, we found that there was a whole range of technology where it was impossible for us to go ahead on our own, although we thought it right and proper that we should enter those spheres. We had neither the financial nor manpower resources to do so and, with the passage of time, we will become progressively an under-developed country in terms of science and technology if we fail to join the Community and adopt a European approach.
An example of this in recent years has been the brain drain. Our young people with knowledge of technology have been unable to find suitable work in this country and have gone abroad. We have been unable to continue with or launch new projects. In some cases, we have had to adopt a bilateral approach with Europe simply because we did not have the resources to go it alone.
It is logical to demand that those who oppose our entry into Europe must face up to the alternatives. If they claim to be in a position to prove that if we join we will be the losers, then equally they must evaluate the alternatives. It is not sufficient for them to say, "It is not for us to prove that there is an alternative". They must give precisely that proof. The people of Britain need it if they are to make the right choice. If joining the Community is wrong, what is right?
It is logical to demand that those who oppose our entry must say what our growth will be in the future. We must be told how it will be possible to obtain it and why it has been unattainable in the past. They must evaluate our rôle in advanced technology and explain why we have been unable to achieve it.

Mr. Arthur Lewis: Without arguing against the case being made by my hon. Friend, may I ask him to say why it is not up to the Government to give us all the facts and figures, instead of merely saying that our entry into the E.E.C. will mean an increase in the cost of living of only a halfpenny or so in the £? We must have tangible evidence of this.
How will joining a Community of 3 million increase our productivity and help us to overcome many of our present ills without those 3 million becoming increased competitors with us? All the necessary facts and figures should have been given in the White Paper.

Mr. Brown: I shall be making my views known on some of those matters as I make my speech, and I trust that my hon. Friend will forgive me if I do not deal with his specific question now.
I was arguing on the basis of Labour's years in government, and the points I am making were made by the then Labour Government when we were responsible for technology. I am observing that those who are now taking a contrary view to what they said then must say how the objectives that Britain must have for the future can be achieved if we stay outside the Community.
I have always regretted that Britain failed to join the Coal and Steel Community in 1951, just as I have regretted that we were not one of the original members of the E.E.C. Had we joined initially, the pattern and shape of the Community would probably now be extremely different and we would not now be discussing terms of entry and what it will cost us to get in.
It is worth recalling, especially by those who now say that the Community countries are being hard on us, that originally it was our decision not to go in. In 1959 we set up E.F.T.A., composed of those countries which refused to join the E.E.C. We were all waiting to see how the play was going. But we did not want to be left too far behind, so we set up


E.F.T.A. to enable any changes being made in the E.E.C. countries to be made by the E.F.T.A. countries, thereby keeping in step.
People complain that if we join the Community many of the decisions that we now take will be made for us by faceless men in another country. They should remember that the Commission for E.F.T.A. is situated in Geneva, where many decisions of vital importance are taken.
For example, when we imposed the 15 per cent. surcharge in 1964, it was in Geneva that complaints were made and where we were urged to remove the surcharge within 12 months. People in this country were not screaming about demands being made by faceless people in a foreign land.

Mr. Arthur Lewis: They were, you know.

Mr. Brown: Perhaps they were screaming for the 15 per cent. surcharge to be taken off—

Mr. Arthur Lewis: Mr. Arthur Lewis rose—

Mr. Brown: —but the faceless men whom the anti-Marketeers allege will be telling us what to do if we join the E.E.C. did not come into it.

Mr. Arthur Lewis: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Brown: No. E.F.T.A. is no substitute for the E.E.C. Nor is E.F.T.A. in this country. E.F.T.A., as such—the place where the decisions are taken—is in another European nation, which proves that there is no great merit in many of the arguments on the sovereignty issue.
I come to the importance for me of the position of my party in this matter. Since 1962 the Labour Party has been clear in saying that it was our determination to join the Community if adequate terms could be obtained. All along we have said that in our view that would be the best course for Britain. We laid down five special conditions that we thought should be satisfied, though in the fullness of time the background to those conditions has altered radically, so that by 1967, during the Labour Government's time, my right hon. Friends were able to assess that sufficient evidence existed

to suggest that the time was ripe to begin to make another attempt to join the E.E.C.
Therefore, one presumes that at that stage they had tested the five conditions we had laid down to satisfy themselves that they could be reasonably met. So that it could not be argued that they had not paid attention to this, they went on a tour of the six capitals to discuss the matter privately with all the Heads of State. One presumes that they discussed the background to these five special conditions. Therefore, one could assume that after they returned they decided that the five conditions could be reasonably met.
Hon. Members will recall that it was argued that our application in 1967 was more likely to succeed because we had been so careful with the planning and because the application was made as a direct result of talking to our friends in Europe. It was said that the reason why the 1962 application failed was because it was not well prepared. Our application was different. It was well prepared. Because it was well prepared one assumes that we were absolutely clear in 1967 about matters such as the Treaty of Rome and C.A.P. being no longer a problem—otherwise we would never have come to the conclusion that the time was ripe to apply.
Following on from that, it is reasonable, therefore, to suppose that the various Departments of State must have produced what I would call "position papers" in order to determine the parameters of the case for the negotiators. They would lay down the maximum position, the optimum position and the minimum position, and from that certain work would be done to determine our position, and in negotiating clearly there would be a to-ing and fro-ing between these various positions. It would be a kind of amalgam of the various positions—the maximum, optimum and minimum. Therefore, when a judgment was made about the terms that would finally be negotiated, one would expect to take them overall, because if one gained on one and got the maximum, one would get the minimum somewhere else and the optimum somewhere else.
Therefore, the terms now offered appear not to be significantly different from those we would have accepted. But if it is now argued that these are not the terms


that we would have accepted it is not unreasonable to have these position papers published before next Thursday. Let us see what the Labour Government's negotiating position was. Let us see what were the negotiating factors given to our team. We shall then be able to judge our negotiating position as against the terms that have now been offered from the E.E.C.
I hope that that can be done. It is a simple proposition. It was understandable that when some of my hon. Friends were pressing the Labour Government in 1970 to publish their negotiating position, the Government rightly said, "We cannot do that". Any trade unionist is aware that one does not publish one's negotiating position whilst negotiating an increase in wages from an employer. One is asking for a lot but one may be prepared to accept something less. One does not say so before one starts. Therefore, it was a reasonable refusal by the Government.
But since that is not the case today, in that we are not negotiating any longer, it is reasonable that we should ask for these papers to be published. It would help some of us to make up our minds on the relationship between these two things.
I am in complete agreement with the Labour Party's view of the Government. I believe the Government to be incompetent. Their economic, industrial and social policies are a disaster for the country. Like many others, I have fought them for so long. I regret that the British people were misled enough to elect them in June last year.
I support also the Labour Party view that it is, in principle, in the interests of Britain to join the E.E.C. if we can obtain the right terms. That is what we have argued and I support that entirely. The only area of disagreement is whether the terms are right. It is critical to know what was our negotiating position so as to be able to assess the final agreement that has been reached. I remain convinced that of all the choices open to us—there are other choices besides the E.E.C.—joining the E.E.C. will prove to be the best policy that we can adopt. Those who hold other views have made their own assessments. But it is in the interests of our people, and they have a right, not only to know what entry will

cost, and to evaluate the advantages in the long or short term, but they ought to know also what it will cost if we do not enter the E.E.C. That is one of the factors that the British people have not yet understood. If we reject the E.E.C., we should reject it only after telling the people just what their future will he like in the years that lay ahead.

8.26 p.m.

Mr. William Clark: I hope that the hon. Member for Shore-ditch and Finsbury (Mr. Ronald Brown) will excuse me if I do not comment on all the points he made. The House listened to him with great interest, particularly when he spoke about the terms. The burden of his speech was that this is not a party issue, there being no party politics about the matter.
We are taking a decision unprecedented in history. Many of us have tried to evaluate which way we should vote on Thursday. Like many hon. Members I have done a lot of travelling and much discussing about this. I have looked at the economics as best I am able. Everyone would agree that the economics of entry are very finely balanced. One can say, "We have this advantage but that disadvantage; we have this little advantage but that little disadvantage", and so on.
It is true that over the past 10 years or so the growth of the E.E.C. countries has increased at a greater rate than ours. But I remind the House—I am not making a party point—that in the six years from 1964 to 1970 our economy was run down. I do not expect hon. Members opposite to agree with that. But to try to compare the growth of the E.E.C., with their uninterrupted progress, with our progress, which I consider was interrupted, is a fallacy.
I have spent some time in Brussels. One of the points I put to the Commission when I was discussing this matter informally was, "The Common Market countries are doing very well. Britain is doing very badly. We are the poor relation". They said, "Certainly". I said, "Why do you want a poor relation to join you?", but I did not get a satisfactory answer to that one.
I have many reservations on the Common Market issue, but one of the things that worries me particularly is that by


joining the E.E.C. there will be the irreversible consequence of running down our traditional markets in the rest of the world. If the attitude of the Common Market countries is, "We are doing beautifully. Britain is a poor relation, but bring her in", there must be something behind it now that they want us to join.
Initially there are bound to be disadvantages. One would expect that. The long-term effects of exhausting world resources must be considered, but I do not think that that is an issue which affects Thursday's vote. Between now and Thursday we must make up our minds.
As I say, initially there will be disadvantages from entry. I will not exaggerate the rise in the cost of food. One other disadvantage that worries me is the question of a reduction in tariffs. I am all for competition if we start reducing tariffs between us, although we will get ourselves right eventually, in the transitional period some of our trade will be lost. This must be added to the question of the increased cost of food, whatever that is, although I will not argue about the price of a pound of butter.
If we want more competition—this is the industrial and economic argument for joining the E.E.C.—we do not necessarily have to join the Common Market. If we want to get competition, we can do it easily. Some time ago when there was an inflationary wage claim at Chrysler, there was some talk about reducing tariffs. It did not matter whether one was a pro-or anti-Common Marketeer, everybody was up in arms about that, because that would be unfair competition.
The advantages and disadvantages of our joining the Common Market are finely balanced. The letters in The Times from anti-Market economists and pro-Market economists prove this.
One thing we should remember is the political effect of our joining the E.E.C. There is no question but that there must be some loss of control eventually. This I accept. I look further than that. It is all very well merging one's business and saying that profitability will be higher and higher in the long run. The question I ask is: what sort of partner am I taking on?
I look with some suspicion at the proposition that all our defence will be perfectly all right as soon as we get into the E.E.C. I want first to be assured that France will rejoin N.A.T.O.
Next, there is talk about world commodity markets. The International Sugar Agreement has been going for some years but even now, although this position may be changed in future, the E.E.C. does not belong to it. My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has got terms as good as any which any Government of the United Kingdom could have obtained. However, the E.E.C. can absorb the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement, which is about 1·4 million tons per year, only if the Common Market countries are prepared to have agreed quotas. Otherwise it cannot be done, because there will be an exportable surplus of sugar. These things must be ironed out.
Then there is the question of the floating of the Deutschmark which the Common Market countries have not yet decided amongst themselves; nor have they agreed to the reaction to the Nixon 10 per cent.
We should not delude ourselves that simply because we join everything in the garden will be rosy. For some time we had a fixation about Europe. It is that Europe is our only salvation and our only market. The only thing that will produce markets for us is profitability being competitive. If we can sell in Europe, why cannot we sell in the rest of the world? We should not overplay the question that Europe is our only market.
I confess that 10 or 12 years ago I was more or less in favour of joining the Common Market. At that time our economy was stronger than it is today. I do not think that our economy today is sufficiently buoyant, although it is becoming more so, to withstand some of the initial disadvantages of entry.
Finally, what of the public? We are all elected by those who vote for us. In 1964 the Common Market was not an issue; nobody mentioned it. It was a dead duck, although one hesitates to use the word "duck" nowadays. In 1966 the Market was not an issue. In 1970 we said that we would negotiate. That is fair enough. So far as my own campaign was concerned, it was not really in issue.


Of course, I was questioned, and I said that we would have to weigh up the advantages and disadvantages and that if the advantages outweighed the disadvantages I would vote for entry; otherwise, I would not.
I cannot see that the issue is so overwhelming that we must get into the Common Market. I am worried that despite the propaganda which has rightly been put out, despite the fact that, as the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) said earlier, most of the national Press has been slightly pro-Common Market, we have not as yet convinced the general public that we should join. About one-third of the public say that they want to join.

Mr. Richard Body: Half.

Mr. Clark: My hon. Friend should read his figures a little more carefully. Only about one-third of the people in this country say that they want to join. I do not think it is wise for any politician to ignore public opinion. I do not think I have a mandate to go into the Common Market. One might say that the subject is too complex for the ordinary man to understand. I think this is really political arrogance, and I say this as a politician. I do not think I have the right to say to the voters, "I know better than you and, therefore, I shall vote for it." I do not accept—the hon. Member for Shore-ditch and Finsbury raised this point—the fact of defeatism, that if we do not get into the Common Market this country is finished. One only has to look at the last four or five months' trade figures and at the reserves. While we are talking about the buoyancy of the economy, the E.E.C. has a growth of about 4¾ per cent. per year, and that is what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has budgeted for this year. What shall we get if we go in?
I regret that this matter seems to have got into the political cockpit. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was absolutely right to have a free vote. There is no doubt that hon. Members on this side of the House will be able to vote as they wish. I do not agree with referenda; I do not think many hon. Members like them. But short of a referendum, the next best thing is to have a free vote in the House of Commons, on both sides, so that we can get the true

feeling of Members of Parliament. As a Member of Parliament I have obviously given this matter very careful thought, and it has been a very difficult decision to make. I am not suggesting that I am infallible—I do not think anybody is—but as the economic factors in my view are not overwhelming, as the political arguments and implications could be very far-reaching and we have not convinced the general public of the desirability of entering the Common Market, I cannot commit the electorate to such an uncertain gamble, and reluctantly and regretfully I shall vote against the Motion.

8.39 p.m.

Mr. Reg. Prentice: The constituency of the hon. Member for Surrey, East (Mr. William Clark) overlaps part of the London Borough of Croydon. I speak as a resident of Croydon and as a patron of the Croydon Branch of the Common Market Safeguards Campaign, and I found the hon. Member's speech welcome.
I am glad to learn from the Croydon Advertiser that two out of the four Croydon Members propose to vote on Thursday against the Common Market entry. I wish the other two would follow suit. I personally am opposed, and have been opposed for many years, to British entry into the E.E.C. both on domestic and international grounds. I shall confine my remarks this evening to the international reasons. In doing so, I begin from a point made by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster towards the end of his speech when he said—I took a note of his words—that the question was how we would respond to the changes which have taken place in the world in the last 25 years or so.
I put it to the House that that is the wrong question. We are concerned not with the last 25 years or so but with the next 25 years or so, and at a time when the pace of history is increasing faster than ever before it is profoundly dangerous to consider an issue like this in terms of the recent past. I believe that there was a much stronger case for our membership of the Common Market in the late 'forties and early 'fifties, in the context of the post-war situation, than there is as we look at the problems that we will face in the 'seventies and beyond.
Some of the arguments advanced for membership are essentially out of date In my submission the really big international problems facing us in the period ahead are global ones. They are not European problems. They are not confined to any one continent, or to either side of the cold war, or to any one group in the world. They result from the growing gap between the richer and the poorer countries; from the population explosion; from the threat of nuclear war; from both the dangers and the opportunities provided by the growth of science and technology.
All those problems seem to me to require global action through the co-operation of all countries by means of whatever machinery we can devise, and the question to which we should address ourselves in this debate is: will the enlargement of the E.E.C. by British membership and the membership of the other candidate countries enable our country and the other countries of Europe to play a more and not a less effective rôle in relation to these world problems? My own conclusion is that it will inhibit us in many ways from playing the sort of rôle that we should play.
I want to consider this subject particularly from the point of view of the growing gap between the richer and the poorer countries. We often fail to appreciate just how fast this gap is growing. The gap between our living standards and the living standards of the poorer countries has approximately doubled since 1960, and it will grow many times faster in the rest of the century at the present rate of progress, no matter what we do about it. It represents a threat to the peace, the security and the prosperity of everyone in the world, whether he lives at the moment in a developed or an underdeveloped country.
Let me look briefly at the position affecting our membership from the point of view of aid to developing countries, and rather more extensively from the point of view of trading relations. It is often claimed that the Community has a better record of aid to developing countries than we have, but it is a very mixed record. If any hon. Member doubts that, I ask him to look at the 1970 figures, given as a percentage of gross national

Product, devoted to official Government aid.
The British figure in 1970 was ·37 of 1 per cent. of our gross national product. We were beaten by France, with ·65; by the Netherlands, with ·63, and by Belgium, with ·48, and we were better than Germany, with ·32 and Italy, with ·16. If private investment is added—because it can be for the purpose of U.N. statistics—we get the same picture, with France, the Netherlands and Belgium having a better record than ours and Germany and Italy having a worse one. It makes no difference whether or not a country is in the E.E.C. If we take the long list of members of the O.E.C.D.—16 nations—again we find in that league table many countries above Britain and many below. The reasons for the difference are national in each case. The record of all members of O.E.C.D., including the Six, is too low. All should be improved, just as our record should be. It does not make any difference whether or not we are in the E.E.C.
Our performance in overseas aid in the years ahead will depend partly, as it has always done, on the state of our balance of payments. What worries me profoundly is the possibility that the strain on our balance of payments in the early years of membership of the Community will create the sort of situation in which the Treasury may come forward with recommendations for cutting overseas aid—and here I speak with some bitter experience. I put it to the Government that if we enter the Community it will be a national disgrace if we pay our contributions to the Community budget at the expense of the developing countries. This is something about which I hope both sides of the House will be vigilant.
I turn to trading aspects, on which we can base a clearer criticism of entry than on the question of aid. We could do better or worse, theoretically, with aid, inside or outside the Community. As for trade with the developing world, the one question that has received a lot of attention has been that concerning the sugar-producing countries. In a sense n is ironic that we have devoted far more attention to the 500,000 or 600,000 people in Mauritius than to the 500 million or 600 million in the Indian Continent. We


should certainly pay more attention to the larger Commonwealth countries.
As to the sugar issue, we are concerned with some of the smallest and most vulnerable members of the Commonwealth—countries vulnerable to any change in their ability to sell their sugar in our market, and dependent on this one product. They are countries which have recently been British colonies, such as Fiji, Mauritius, and Barbados. It is a matter of national honour that we do not betray them in the situation that will arise after 1974. The record of the Community in this respect has been a bad one. The sugar-producing countries such as Surinam, Malagasy, and Congo—Brazzaville—have suffered in relation to the beet sugar producers of Europe.
This is a classic example of a situation in which the interests of the developing countries clash with those of European producers. What has happened so far with sugar does not bode well for the future. We have been told by the Chancellor of the Duchy that the words "take to heart" written into the agreement have a special significance in French. Be that as it may, I have never seen any conceivable excuse for the failure of the Chancellor of the Duchy or the Government to insist on a quantifiable guarantee from the Community for sugar producers after 1974.
Returning to wider matters, the position that I put to the House is that neither the E.E.C. nor Britain has had a good enough record in adjusting its trading pattern to the needs of the developing world. Our pattern has been better than that of the E.E.C. because of Commonwealth preferences, and because the Commonwealth forms such a large part of the developing world. The present position is that 26 per cent. of our imports come from developing countries while 20 per cent. of the imports of the Six come from developing countries. If we have to adjust our trading pattern to theirs by forgoing Commonwealth preferences and adopting the Common external tariff this is bound to be, to some extent, at the expense of the developing countries, particularly those in the Commonwealth who will not qualify for associate status.
I do not want to talk about the merits of associate status or otherwise for countries in Africa and the Caribbean. This is a much-disputed area, and the recent

report of the Africa Bureau makes interesting reading. Even if we assume that the Commonwealth countries of Africa and the Caribbean will benefit from associate status we are talking of 100 million people, whereas the Commonwealth citizens who will be excluded amount to 700 million living in India, Pakistan, Ceylon, Malaysia and Singapore.

Mr. Peter Blaker: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that Indian exports to the E.E.C. between 1958 and 1969 showed a very much bigger increase than India's export trade to us in the same period?

Mr. Prentice: The point is that export trades increased because of the growth in the economy of the Six. Because of economic growth, the Six have naturally imported more goods, including more goods from developing countries. It really comes back to the question of the relative percentages of their imports and ours. The effect of our entry upon India and the other Southern Asian countries will be a double one. They will lose their Commonwealth preferences in the British market and will see that preferential position overtaken by their competitors among the Six and the associates of the Six. They will suffer a double loss
At this stage, in particular, we should be concerned about the effect upon India which did not feature in the negotiations to any extent. It should have done. We are talking about the largest country in the Commonwealth—the largest country in the developing world, apart from China—and the largest democracy in the world. The maintenance of democracy and free institutions in India has been one of the greatest achievements by any country over the last 20 years, and the preservation of democracy and free institutions in India is of vital concern to the whole human family. We are discussing this matter at a time when India is bearing a crushing burden because of the effects of the situation in East Bengal This is a time when we should not take our obligations to her as lightly as they have been taken by the Government in these negotiations.
Like others, I believe that the danger we face is that of a world polarising into two or three large trading blocs dominated by the United States, Japan and the E.E.C., each with a limited number of developing countries in some form of


attachment but leaving outside a large part of the developing world. The growing protectionism between these blocs will be bad for the people within them and worse still for those outside.
It has been argued—this was the point of an interjection by the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. David Mitchell)—that because of this situation Britain should be careful to get inside one of these blocs, and will suffer if she stays out. I believe that to be a mistaken view. Our trading future must involve trade with all continents. We simply cannot sustain the standard of living that we enjoy, let alone improve it, unless we have exports to all continents. Therefore, the growth of these trading blocs runs counter to British interests as well as to the interests of a large part of the developing world.
If some of us make a plea to the House of Commons this week to have regard to the needs of the developing countries, we are not doing it simply because we regard the situation in the developing world as a moral challenge to us—although clearly it is; we are also doing it for reasons of national self-interest. It is in the interests of Britain and of the developing countries that there should be the widest and freest trade among all countries.
This argument for more freedom of trade ties up with other international requirements. In the 1970s there is a need for more dynamic development in the developing countries, for disarmament, and for the strengthening of the United Nations. All these are objectives in which Britain should be taking a lead rather than being obsessed with her relationships with her neighbours in Western Europe.
Sometimes it is argued that the creation of a regional bloc, such as an enlarged Community should be seen as a kind of stepping stone towards the growth of a world community—that we must co-operate with our neighbours first, learn the lessons of co-operating with them and, in due course, build on that foundation a stronger United Nations or world community. We do not have time for that. It is a leisurely timetable, by which we see the evolution of Europe first as a customs union, then as an economic union, then, perhaps, as a political union, and finally

—in a generation's time, perhaps—taking other steps. That leisurely approach to international problems is far too evolutionary in the critical age in which we live.
It really is a question of priorities. It is a question of what items feature on the agenda of Cabinets. It is a question of what subjects are the subjects of six-day debates in our Parliament, or in other parliaments. It is a question of whether the most able people in the Foreign Office are in the European division or the United Nations division. I do not believe that a country such as ours can have on its agenda more than one or two major changes of this kind at any one time.
The world issues to which I have made a brief reference this evening are being pushed back because of our obsession, all the time, with having a different relationship with our European neighbours, whose contribution is inhibited because they are obsessed with the problems of enlarging the E.E.C. It seems to me that historians of the future may need to write of our period that it was one in which the rich nations of the world were obsessed with the debts which they owned one another, and with customs arrangements which they made with one another, so that they turned their backs on the needs of mankind. This simply will not do. It is because these international questions deserve greater priority that I believe we should not be so obsessed with European problems as we are at the present time.

8.56 p.m.

Mr. Hugh Dykes: It is with some feeling of unwillingness that I am not able to say anything more now about the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) than that both sides of the House listened to it not only with interest but with great respect. It was a closely argued speech. After all, he is an expert on this subject, and I myself would be very reluctant to, as it were, tussle with him on some of the detailed propositions he put forward in what was a fascinating and appealing speech. At least, he struck a chord which is common to both sides of the House when he said that we must maximise aid to the under-developed countries.
None the less, I thought it rather sad that he emphasised to the extent he did


what he regarded as the limitation of the Community in regard to this whole matter. To my mind what we shall be doing, by deciding, as I hope we shall, to vote in principle, and then for the subsequent legislation, on going in on the terms as set out, will be not only taking our logical place in Europe, at long last, but also doing one of the things to which the right hon. Gentleman attached importance, and many other things as well.
I would say that with our addition, and the addition of the other applicant countries, Europe will be sorting itself out in a final sense, and looking outwards to the rest of the world. To my mind that is not only an acceptable but also a proven proposition. One knows from those long conversations one has with people in the Commission and others when one goes on the Continent that aid to under-developed countries is a matter of concern, and they insist that it is.
That is only one aspect of the question, and it is not one which has come up very frequently so far in this great debate. In the earlier part, the debate tended to concentrate on and emphasise rather sordid language—about who said what, and when, and who has changed his mind, but that has been superseded now by the debate focusing on what I regard as the priorities, and the opportunity and the challenge which this country now has and the dramatic character of something which we ought to welcome very strongly, namely, the new Anglo-French entente. It is because the achievement of Anglo-French entente after so many difficulties and blind alleys has provided the launching pad for our potential entry to the E.E.C. that the whole House should welcome our new friendship with France and not scorn it in the old chauvinistic way in which the relations between this country and the French Republic have been characterised.
The case for our entry into Europe has an overwhelming and utterly convincing logicality, but this debate is primarily about the terms recommended by the Government and all the implications of what will come afterwards. I will refer to one or two specific aspects of the terms.
The transitional period means that the United Kingdom has the strong advantage of becoming a full member in 1973, with-

out paying the full dues and expenses of membership until virtually 1980. Other encouraging items which should be put into perspective are that, for example, the initial contribution to the overall budget is just over 8½ per cent., compared with the 16 or 17 per cent. originally suggested by the Community. We have accepted the principles of the common agricultural policy in return for what France and other member countries regard as major concessions to us. On sterling there has been an outline agreement satisfactory to ourselves. On fisheries we are now virtually starting from scratch, but no one can assume pessimistically that we are at an automatic disadvantage in that these negotiations are now on the verge of beginning.
The Commonwealth countries, apart from the two main white Dominion countries, who through us and through their own unilateral efforts create contacts with the Six and ourselves will have ample opportunity to make a special arrangement with the Community if we go in. The right hon. Member for East Ham. North referred to the residual arrangements which would apply to E.F.T.A. countries remaining outside.
All this must mean to those who look at it objectively that the Six have made as many concessions as we have, if not more, in conceding the common agricultural policy and a number of other items. We are not joining a doctrinaire, rigid, regulated, massive bureaucracy intent on oppressing this country and intent upon having us as a hostage member only for its own advantages, We are joining an organic group which will continue to develop organically in the future. It is a sophisticated organism, unique in the world. It is large-minded and not narrow-minded, undogmatic and not doctrinaire. The old arguments about what will prevail in the enlarged Europe—planned Socialism or Horatio Alger-type capitalism—are in the context of a new and enlarged Europe sterile, futile and arid.
In the sense that such arguments have manifested themselves in what has been said so far in debate, I believe they represent the fact that it is difficult for hon. Members, in whatever party they may be, to know what will be the new context of Europe with ourselves inside it. We now have the opportunity of entering a massive efficient, well-organised


and successful economic grouping without the disadvantages of tight central political control.
A body such as the Council of Ministers is almost tailor-made for the kind of political structure and political behaviour which we enjoy in this country. It is pragmatic, objective and works on a mixture of balance of judgment, concessions, reciprocity and agreements after a large discussion and it is the central political power base in the Community. Therefore, by definition, we have our own democratic extension through this national Parliament into the Council of Ministers, and that is how the Community is democratically organised and controlled.
Hon. Members on both sides—this applies particularly to Labour Members—have expressed fears about sovereignty. But in 1971 is this not an illusory argument invoking the old sense of the word sovereignty relating to one single national entity like the United Kingdom? Of course, with the old style of thinking we can be a sovereign independent but forgotten national power. But, if we wish to have an accretion of real sovereignty, we have the alternative opportunity of joining the Community and taking our rightful and logical place in Europe.
Much time has been lost since the original negotiations but, after so many difficulties, hesitations, disappointments and set-backs, we are still going into the Community early. The Community's existence has only just begun. That is why it is important and vital to be sure to enter at this critical stage. I am convinced that there will be a vital opportunity for the United Kingdom, with its great traditions and, above all, its most sophisticated political system to give its real contribution to Europe and to say, "We are not afraid to accept the challenge"—and indeed not afraid to accept one or two of the so-called disadvantages, though I prefer to use the word difficulties, in the terms as negotiated, principally on the common agricultural policy.
Let us remember that the fears which have been expressed about the difficulties of entry were the same fears that were expressed word for word in newspapers and magazines in the existing member

countries at the time when the Common Market was originally initiated. In Germany there was the long debate about propping up an inefficient French agriculture. It was said in France that economic planning and financial autonomy would be ruined and destroyed overnight by entry into the Community, with power being transferred to Brussels and eventually to Strasbourg. In Italy it was said that industry would be utterly smashed by German and other foreign competition, and in Belgium it was said that the country would be crushed completely by German industry.
But, to take France as an example on which to assess the possibility of this country succeeding economically in the Community, one can see how that society, which was infinitely less efficient and less well organised than we were earlier on, has become a highly efficient and well-organised society, with an enviable and indeed sustainable annual rate of growth, which is expected to be 5·8 per cent. over the next few years under the five-year plan. Surely the existence of the five-year plan in France itself is an indication that the fears about the erosion of sovereignty, the loss of national control and national discretion in so many policy matters is an illusion and will continue to be in the future.
Some of the other false assumptions of the anti-Marketeers frankly have added to public alarm in recent weeks as we have approached a decision in principle in this House. They need to be contradicted and denied in this debate.
One of the comments which have been made again and again is that, with the other applicant countries, we shall be joining a frozen situation where nothing can be changed, that we shall join an entity which will dominate us, and that we shall be only half a member instead of one of the largest members. Considered in the context of the way in which the Europeans wish to welcome us as equal partners and as a country which will be a balancing factor between the other large member countries, those criticisms clearly are nonsense.
Another false assumption of the anti-Marketeers is that we can survive and do well on our own industrial base. One of my hon. Friends contradicted himself earlier today when he said that we were strong enough 10 years ago to enter the


Community but were now too weak, and went on to say that none the less we could remain outside since we were achieving a higher rate of growth and ought to become buoyant again. However, all the evidence suggests that our industrial base is too small when it is compared with that of the Community. We must enter if we are to contribute to the rest of the world in terms of technological and innovatory development.
Another false assumption of those who are against entry is that the dictatorship of the bureaucracy in Brussels will continue, with the result that no democratic control will exist. I have referred already to the objective evidence in Europe which disproves that theory.
The anti-Marketeers also suggest that there will be no deleterious effect on national morale if we stay out. They suggest that public opinion is dead against going in. However, with no disrespect to any opinion poll, I beg leave to doubt that proposition about public opinion in the country at large.

Mr. J. T. Price: The hon. Gentleman should come north with me.

Mr. Dykes: I shall be happy to accept the hon. Gentleman's invitation.

Mr. Price: I will pay the hon. Gentleman's expenses.

Mr. Dykes: I believe on the contrary that, having heard the conflicting arguments on both sides, the people are not merely utterly bewildered but feel that they have had no opportunity to get a proper picture about membership of the Common Market. It is true that there have been arguments on television, various documents and pamphlets and of course, the White Paper. However, the advantages of the higher living standards and better social services now being developed in the nations of the E.E.C. have not come across to the public. Only the psephological experts and historians will be able to assess the uncanny way in which the arguments have not been able to impinge themselves upon the public mind. Only by assessing the advantages and disadvantages afterwards shall we be able to see what a pity it was that the real arguments were not put over properly.
The old 1961–63 argument, enunciated earlier, that we were too strong then and too weak now is surely set aside by the evidence of our growing economic strength the evidence of a faster expansion of the economy, which is likely to coincide extremely felicitously with our accession to the Treaty of Rome and our entry into the Community if the decision in principle and all the ensuing legislation is taken in this House.
One point about the common agriculture policy, which needs mentioning not merely once, is that, if one examines the instrument of the C.A.P. and the aims set out in the initial document which set up this policy, one of the so-called strategic aims at that time—it may surprise hon. Gentlemen opposite, but it is true—was to reduce eventually over an extended period the number of inefficient farmers in the Community without causing them excessive hardship by an abrupt change. Whether one argues that this timetable, this kind of phased out process over a long period, is right, none the less that is one of the aims of the C.A.P. Not merely is it one of the aims, but it has already started in the sense that French agriculture is a reducing sector in terms of population and will be in terms of output if the population fall in the agricultural sector continues at the same rate over 10 years.
Again on C.A.P., the anti-Common Market camp has repeatedly said that high price levels will constantly be a feature' and cannot be abolished. I believe that the reverse is the case: that high price levels are basically and intrinsically in jeopardy in the future development of the C.A.P. We have already seen in Europe in the last three or four years how price levels by and large have been kept steady while world prices and prices in this country for foodstuffs have risen at a fast rate. Our contribution to the C.A.P. will be the second largest after Germany—[An HON. MEMBER: "Much larger."]—well into the 1980s. The French agricultural sector is declining rapidly and the future price structure of the Community, with our entry, will bear no comparison with what has been seen in the last seven years.
If one could accept all the assumptions on all the evidence of what would appear to be the advantages of joining, the aim of all men of good will outside this House


seeking a future for this country, and of hon. Members on both sides who also wish to see this country strong and influential, must be a strong and motivated nation within the European Economic Community espousing not the politics of fear and of nervousness, but the politics of hope and of challenge.

9.18 p.m.

Mr. Douglas Jay: I address myself tonight to all those who are genuinely anxious, before this decision is taken, to be certain where our long-term interest lie. Amongst those I include my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Ewing) whose excellent maiden speech today was all the better for being not merely eloquent but right.
In this debate all the political arguments for entry which we have heard—unless they are arguments for merging this country into a nuclear-armed superState—rest on the vague assumption that somehow this country would be economically strengthened in the process. But the arguments are unfortunately advanced without the truth of that assumption having been first established. Let us be clear, therefore, that since our debate in July world events have decisively vindicated those who argued that the Government's White Paper was grossly under-estimating the long-term economic burden of joining the E.E.C. and the advantages to this country of staying out—which is, of course, the same thing.
The White Paper and the various propaganda offshoots sought to mislead, basically, by pretending that a temporary high level of world grain prices, due to a rare failure of the United States maize crop in 1970, would continue indefinitely, but even so they dared not give an estimate of the prospective payments burden. The whole position of the United Kingdom depends on the future gap between E.E.C. and world food prices, and I expressed the opinion in the July debate that after the exceptional year of 1970 world grain prices would turn down and the gap widen.
What has happened since? I draw my information from pro-Market newspapers. The Economist said, as early as 31st July:
Across the Northern hemisphere, from the Ukraine to … Ontario, this year's harvest is

ripening into a bumper crop … the present health of the harvest is daily driving down world cereal prices. …A decline in world prices now could embarrass the British Government, which recently assessed the cost of entry into the E.E.C. on last year's prices, which brought the world market unusually close to the artificially high prices in the Common Market.
The F.A.O.'s annual survey, quoted in The Guardian of 7th September, said:
The conditions that pushed up prices and trade in 1970 were on the whole temporary.
The Sunday Times of 15th September reported a bumper grain harvest in the Common Market itself, but with prices still held at 50 per cent. or 60 per cent. above British prices, and a consequent further increase in the cost of the C.A.P. We know now that the United States maize harvest this autumn is almost certainly an all-time record—28 per cent. up on last year—and that the American wheat harvest is 18 per cent. up on last year. Maize prices, according to the Sunday Times of 17th August, have "crashed" since the summer, and the long-term prospect is clearly for lower prices. But the Sunday Times candidly adds:
British consumers … look wistfully at the collapsing world grain market. But they cannot benefit by the cheap prices",
owing to the Government's levy policy, which is holding up prices against the British consumer.
Therefore, the whole of the Government's July calculations—not just of the balance of payments burden but also of the cost of the C.A.P. and the prospective rise in retail food prices in this country—have already been shown to be indisputably false, yet the Minister of Agriculture speaking in this debate on Friday repeated the Government's assumption that the price gap would remain the same as it was early this year, which is manifest nonsense and vitiates the whole of his economic argument.
The Government's July estimate of a rise of between 16 per cent. and 20 per cent. in retail food prices due to joining the E.E.C. was in any case obviously misleading, because it did not take into account either the rise already engineered by Government food levies as a preparation for entry or the V.A.T. on food distribution, which the Minister of Agriculture at Question Time last Thursday was unable to deny.
In view of all that, and the present world food prospects, it seems to me clear that Sir John Winnifrith's estimate that our retail food prices would be forced up by at least 50 per cent. is much nearer the truth. Indeed, that is strikingly confirmed by the August survey of the National Institute, which showed how much higher retail food prices were as recently as October 1970 in the E.E.C. than they are here. They were 27 per cent. higher in France, 47 per cent. higher in Germany, and 78 per cent. higher in Italy—a middle figure, again, of about 50 per cent.
A food price gap of that order would, in the first place, raise all the separate elements in the balance of payments burden and without doubt put the total nearer £1,000 million a year than £500 million in the long run, even if we accept the Government's own estimates of the annual budget tribute paid net by the British taxpayer to Brussels at only £460 million a year and the estimate which the Chancellor of the Duchy gave on 16th December last year of a further loss of between £200 million and £300 million on non-food trade. So, on the Government's own figures, it adds up to £700 million, taking the middle figure. Every one of us knows in his heart that such an extra burden must gravely weaken this country, if not cripple it, politically as well as economically.
Indeed, the only serious attempt—made since last summer—to query these estimates rests on two assumptions; first, that the Government's food levy policy would be continued anyway, even if we did not join and, secondly, that as a result of joining the British public's consumption of beef and butter would be cut by between 20 per cent. and 25 per cent. as a result of higher prices. Those are the assumptions on which any optimistic estimate is based.
Secondly, joining on these conditions would enable the common agricultural policy to be kept going, whereas if we stay out it might, in time, dissolve from its own extravagance. M. Pompidou, who has been much quoted in this debate—I am sure that he is flattered—has made it absolutely clear that if the British taxpayer will really subsidise those lamest of all lame ducks in Europe—his own farmers—the C.A.P. will be given a new

lease of life. He calls it "a new opportunity for French farmers".
Thirdly, an unnecessarily engineered rise in food prices of this order must mean a lower standard of living for the British people, made worse, as it will be, by V.A.T. and much higher social security contributions. This will bear especially hard on old people, on large families and on those still living near the poverty line.
Fourthly, the July White Paper admitted this by arguing that money wages would not rise as a result of entry. The Government now promise a rise in pensions in money terms to offset higher living costs. But over the years we ought to have the rise in pensions without the engineered rise in prices. If we force up food prices in this way it will be economically impossible to provide the same real level of pensions as we otherwise could have done.
So with the other social services. The Secretary of State for Social Services—I am glad to be able to compliment one Minister in this debate—honestly admitted on Friday that joining the E.E.C. would not alter our social security system, thereby giving the lie to all the lavish propaganda about the Six social services which has been served up to us in recent months.
We have been repeatedly told in these months that the real standard of living per head in the Six, except for Italy, is now higher than in this country. Even if this were true it would not be relevant to what will happen to our living standards if we join. But it is wholly lacking in statistical foundation and almost certainly untrue. All the available statistics show that real living standards in this country are as high as in all the Six except Germany—higher than some and very much higher than Italy.
For lack of time tonight I can give only one comparison. The latest United Nations calculation of the comparison of real incomes per head, as given me by the House of Commons Library and brought up to the latest possible date of 1969, shows that the United Kingdom is about level with Germany, Belgium and Holland, well above France, and 40 per cent. above Italy.
The real fact is that we have retained as high a real standard as that of these


countries because of our low food prices, and only if we gratuitously switch over to a dear food policy shall we fall behind them. The general conclusion, therefore, is that the growing payments deficit resulting from entry on these terms would clearly mean even slower growth for this country than has been the case in the past.
Some people genuinely think that one can get out of this situation by repeated devaluation. But, unfortunately, inside the E.E.C. this implies an automatic and inescapable further rise in food prices and therefore an accentuation of all the other consequences.

Mr. Onslow: The right hon. Gentleman said that he may be short of time, so I interrupt his prepared speech to ask whether he will answer a question which I wanted to put earlier to his hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot). We have the remarkable spectacle of the right hon. Gentleman's return to the Opposition Front Bench to speak for a party which claims to be against entry on these terms while he is against entry on any terms. Can he please rationalise this for us?

Mr. Jay: After that, I will certainly not give way again—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—to that hon. Gentleman. Nobody who takes the economic consequences seriously—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] I am answering—can doubt that in all probability growth in these circumstances would be grieviously slowed down.
That prospect of slower growth for these reasons must, in turn, exert the most damaging effect on our development and under-employed areas—not merely Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland but the North-East, North-West, Merseyside and the South-West. We have seen in the past year the shattering effect that a recession can have on these areas.
If we joined the E.E.C. three new powerful, long-term forces would be set in motion which must, in my view, have a disastrous effect. First, new industrial development would tend to shift from the British Isles to the Belgian, Dutch and Lower Rhine area.
It is worth bearing in mind—I do not believe that this is yet fully understood—that at present if a great British, American or international company wants to

manufacture in Western Europe it can, by locating one factory in the British Isles, tap the whole British, E.F.T.A. and Commonwealth preference market (to which we still send 30 per cent. of our exports duty free) and, by placing a second factory within the Six, export to that area duty free.
A prudent company will therefore, tend to do what most of the great companies have done, and place one or two more manufacturing units in each area. Abolish E.F.T.A. and the Commonwealth preference area and merge into one continental unit and there is no export case for the location of factories in the British Isles. The natural thing, therefore, would be for a firm to locate a single unit in Belgium or Holland. There would be bound to be less industrial investment in the British Isles.
This quite evident fact was confirmed by a striking article—[Interruption.] Any hon. Gentleman opposite who thinks that this is bunkum should read the article in the Sunday Times of 17th October which showed that an economic and social research team which had gone into this subject, and whose results were published in Regional Studies, had found
an area in the south of Belgium and Holland and the adjoining corner of Germany
to be the economically most attractive area for industry in the whole enlarged area. According to their evidence, that would grow into the industrial Midlands of the new group. In the United Kingdom there would also inevitably be a redoubled tendency for new investment to move to the South-East. Can Ministers say, for example, whether it is true that if we join the British steel industry proposes that the main centre of new steel manufacture would be in South-East England?
Thirdly, and most important of all, the force of I.D.C. control, which is the main instrument countering these tendencies, would be largely undermined by the compulsory abolition of exchange control enforced by the Treaty of Rome. That would be far more important than any manipulation of grants and loans, which are dignified by the euphemism of "regional policy" on the Continent. If a British firm, refused an I.D.C. in the South-East, threatens to go to Belgium or Holland instead, the exchange control


now normally prevents it. Abolish that, as we should have to, and the British Government would be left with no effective reply to a firm which said, "Unless we get our I.D.C. where we choose we shall go to the Continent".
It is thus inevitable that if one first sets in motion new and powerful forces for a drift of industry and employment out of this country, and simultaneously strikes out of the British Government's hands the one effective control against it, one will start a progressive movement for employment to decline not just in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland but over large parts of industrial England, north and west of the Midlands, as well.

Mr. Emery: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer two questions about investment? I have been following him very closely. First, he suggested that the majority of new investment within Europe is likely to go to a conurbation in Brussels, Holland and the Ruhr. Will not the major part of non-European investment be American? Will not the right hon. Gentleman accept that the reason that American investment has gone there in the past is that we were not in the Common Market and they would much rather come to England?

Mr. Jay: The hon. Gentleman did not listen to my argument. I explained clearly that under present circumstances there is a strong argument for coming both to the British Isles and to the Continent. But if we amalgamate the whole area into one market the argument in favour of the British Isles disappears. In addition to all this—the hon. Gentleman said that he was following closely; I hope that he will listen—the Brussels Commission is now, in effect, exercising the right to determine what are to be our development areas and what are not. I should like to ask the Minister—the right hon. Gentleman shakes his head—whether he can give an assurance that if we do join the British Government will be free to schedule what areas they choose as development areas and to use in those areas what instruments of policy they think necessary.
The tragic consequences of the Government's present policies arise not just from the damaging effects on our own country but also from the lost opportunity for

constructive international policies. Do Ministers deny that at this very moment the E.F.T.A. countries, which had the wisdom not to apply to join, are being offered by the E.E.C. Commission full industrial free trade area status, without the burden of the C.A.P. or subjection to the Brussels bureaucracy? That is precisely the solution which would have been overwhelmingly in the interest of Britain and which we could still achieve if we had the wisdom and resolution to pursue it as we pursued the Marshall Plan and the Kennedy Round.
The present policy, if not checked, will now secure that Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, Austria and other E.F.T.A. countries—and even East Germany—will have industrial free trade area status with the Six and make no contribution whatever to the cost of the C.A.P. In effect, the British taxpayer, almost alone out of 10, 12 or 14 countries, would bear those burdens, and all the others would get the same benefits without paying anything for them. This is the grotesque situation to which we are now being brought.
Not merely are the E.F.T.A. non-candidates now being offered all these benefits without the burdens, but it is now clear that General de Gaulle at the time of the Soames affair offered a very similar situation to us and it was our own Foreign Office that turned it down. [Interruption.] If the Prime Minister is saying that he would have accepted it, this is a most interesting answer to get from him. I was not a member of the Government at that time, and I think that it was a mistake to turn it down, if that is the offer which was made.
Why should not the United Kingdom he given the same opportunities now as the other E.F.T.A. countries? For internationally such a liberal solution would yield the precious gain to us that we should not have to erect new tariffs against anybody and we should not line up with the E.E.C.s agricultural protectionism against the free trade forces in the United States. The common agricultural policy, apart from anything else, is plainly a breach of G.A.T.T. and it has been one main force in pushing the United States towards protectionism. There are strong protectionist forces in the United States. But there are also strong free trade forces, as Mr. Hubert Humphrey's speech in London and the


manifesto of a number of American economists, and also the extremely influential Williams Committee's report to the President recommending the progressive elimination of most tariffs over 10 years and total elimination over 25 years, has shown in recent months.
An American President, if he has strong international support, can, as the Marshall Plan and the Kennedy Round showed, range himself with the free trade forces against the protectionist forces. But if even this country, which up to the last few years was always on the liberal side, disappeared into the restrictionist and protectionist embraces of the E.E.C. and the C.A.P. these protectionist forces, with all the disaster that could mean for the free world, are all too likely to prevail. It is not pleasant to hear on all hands now that on these matters this country's opinions are hardly considered in Washington.
The House should note the practical moral of the position into which we have now been forced. If Parliament rejects these policies, so far from the alleged dreadful consequences following, the opportunities would open up for more liberal and constructive policies in the whole field of trade, aid and international monetary reform. Indeed, there is no reason why the E.E.C. should not co-operate in those policies just as it did in the Kennedy Round with the United States, E.F.T.A.. Japan and the developing countries. The opportunities here are immense. It is only the lead that is lacking at present.
However, what probably matters even more at the moment than these lost international opportunities is that we have now reached a point at home where the Prime Minister has plainly not obtained the full-hearted support of Parliament and people. Any individual poll, referendum, by-election or what you will can no doubt be disputed, but no one with any pretence of honesty can examine the total available evidence and maintain that full-hearted, popular consent has been obtained for this policy. Never in modern times has it been suggested that sweeping and irrevocable changes can be made in our constitution without any mandate from the electorate—and, incidentally, in virtually no other democratic country either.
I say that because of what has been said today about sovereignty. The constitutional change involved in signing the Rome Treaty would certainly be the greatest since 1689, if not longer than that. We should hand over power to legislate for British internal affairs to unelected bodies outside this country. We should surrender the power of taxation, and tax revenue, to authorities other than the British Parliament and the British Crown. We should subordinate British courts on internal issues to a court of law external to this country. We should abandon the basic principle that Parliament cannot irretrievably bind its successsors. All this would curtail and not, as in our previous constitutional changes, extend the rights of the electorate.

Mr. Onslow: Mr. Onslow rose—

Mr. Jay: Even if one thinks that all that is right, one cannot reasonably argue that it should be done without the consent of the electorate. In the constitutional crisis of 1910, there was virtually nobody who argued, least of all among the Conservatives, that even the powers of the House of Lords should be curtailed without electoral consent, and two General Elections were held for that reason.
The present Prime Minister has rightly declared that the border of Northern Ireland must not be changed without the consent of the people of Northern Ireland. I say that the United Kingdom has exactly the same right of self-determination as the people of Northern Ireland. All the other applicant countries at present are granting a referendum to their electorate as a fundamental democratic right. Nor does anybody believe that the phrase in the election manifesto:
Our sole commitment is to negotiate: no more, no less
could, with any shred of sincerity, justify the signature of the Rome Treaty. For the Prime Minister to pretend that this justifies an irrevocable decision does not enhance the Prime Minister's reputation for political veracity.
I see the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry sitting rather coyly on the Front Bench opposite. He, with that charming candour which we all so much value, admitted in his maiden speech that the Government had no mandate for any such decision. Any attempt, therefore, in those circumstances, to force a


decision on a clearly divided nation would merely damage Parliament in the eyes of the people.

Mr. Gilbert Longden: I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. I think it is fair to repeat the question which was asked earlier by the Leader of the Liberal Party. If the Labour Party had been re-elected and had got the terms that they could accept, was it their intention to have a referendum or a General Election?

Mr. Jay: It would certainly have been my intention—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] The hon. Gentleman has asked me what I suppose was a serious question. I believe that, in those circumstances, the Government should obtain the assent of the electorate. It so happens that it was the party opposite who won the election, and therefore their manifesto was rather more relevant. In those circumstances, it seems to me that to ignore this pledge—

Mr. Atkinson: Would my right hon. Friend accept that there is nothing embarrassing in the question which was asked? More than one member of the then Labour Party said in unmistakably clear terms that once the negotiations had been finalised they would be first submitted for endorsement or otherwise by the annual conference of the Labour Party. [Interruption.] I can well understand, because hon. Members opposite are so devoid of any understanding of the meaning of the word "democracy"—[Interruption.]—particularly at this time of night, that they find it difficult to understand that as a democratic movement the British Labour Party has said that it would first consult the opinion of its rank and file and then, if the policy was endorsed it would be submitted to the rest of the people of the country. That is the answer to this sort of question.

Mr. Jay: I did the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. Longden) the courtesy of assuming that he was asking a serious question, and I have given him a serious answer. If he will now allow me, I will continue with my serious argument.
To pursue this policy that is dividing the nation and the House would in my

view be too great a constitutional outrage to be binding on future Parliaments or future Governments. It would not be accepted by millions of people unless and until the electorate had given its consent. For these reasons, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) has said, a future Labour Government would regard this whole issue as open unless and until a new settlement could be reached which genuinely upheld British interests and was accepted by the British electorate.
For why, after all, are a majority of the ordinary people of the country resolutely opposed, as all the evidence shows, to this unwanted revolution? Basically, it seems to me, it is because they profoundly believe in our democratic system, with all its faults, and do not wish to see that precious tradition sacrificed to the unknown or put at the mercy of other countries, whose attachment to parliamentary government in some cases, to say the least, is rather more recent than our own.
I believe that the British people want friendly relations politically, commercially and culturally with all these and other nations. They want good neighbourly policies. But they do not want an indissoluble union, and I believe that they are right. That is why, in the end, this issue will be decided not by this Government and not even by this House, but by the next General Election.

9.53 p.m.

The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Robert Carr): As the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) was concluding I could not help wondering what many members of his party would have looked like or felt like had Chancellor Brandt been listening to him. And that goes, perhaps, for many people in France who, whatever we may say about their parliamentary government in recent years, have played a slightly leading part in respect of some of the principles for which I have always believed the party opposite stood. But apart from, or perhaps partly because of, the revelation in the right hon. Gentleman's remarks about the constitutional principles and practices of the Labour Party, I should have thought that we could all agree that today's had been a good debate.
We have seen criticisms, mostly from those who perhaps were not here or who did not read HANSARD, that the debate last week did not live up to what was expected of it. I do not think that anyone who has been here today could say that. I believe it has been a good debate, and I would particularly like to congratulate the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Ewing) on what was I understand a most sincere and impressive maiden speech. I apologise to him in that I was not here when he made it. I have a full report of it and the impression which it made. I understand the fears and apprehension which he expressed on behalf of his constituents about unemployment, particularly against the background of the present position in Scotland.
The effect of membership of the Common Market on the employment prospects of this country will be one of the main themes about which I want to speak. I shall take a different view of these effects, but I want, nevertheless, to congratulate him. He chose a good occasion to make his maiden speech and he rose to the occasion.
When we turn to the Opposition Front Bench speeches, if it might be true to say that the debate was opened by Mr. "Demagogue", I hope the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Battersea, North will not take it as a slight if we feel it was closed by "Mr. Pedagogue".
It is nice to see the right hon. Gentleman back on the Front Bench. He has been given the return ticket, from Plymouth possibly, to come here to make the same gloomy forebodings, to give the same exaggeratedly pessimistic figures and ideas, to show the same lack of vision which the Leader of the Opposition found incompatible in him as a member of his Government several years ago.
To hear the right hon. Gentleman proposing that this country should consider association with the Common Market—something which has been well gone into before by successive Governments and rejected by them as a viable means for this country—to ask that we should have a situation in which we had no vote, no control over the policies of the Europe to which we would associate and at the same time to come to this House and talk about giving up sovereignty is a

proposition which does not stand the slightest examination.

Mr. Jay: Let me make it quite clear to the right hon. Gentleman that I was not suggesting association at all but the same industrial free trade area status which it appears, unless he denies it, is being offered to the non-applicant E.F.T.A. countries.

Mr. Carr: The right hon. Gentleman knows, or if he does not his colleagues certainly do, that such a proposition was not open to us, and was not sought by the previous Government, and for good reason. At least the right hon. Gentleman is consistent, because he has come to the House and said on the Front Bench what we all know—and however much we disagree with him we respect him for this—to be long-held and fundamentally-held views.
I thought that the same could have been said about the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot). I thought he had been constant and fundamental in his opposition to membership of the Common Market. At least I felt he had been constant in his fervent support of the three-line Whip, but I happened to look back at the speech he made in this House on 8th May, 1967, when he concluded with these words:
I say that we must not be 'whipped' into the Common Market. I certainly do not propose to be."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th May, 1967; Vol. 746, c. 1123.]

Hon. Members: That has already been quoted.

Mr. Carr: It may have been quoted already, but, as the hon. Gentleman spoke as he did about three-line Whips today, it is worth recalling his views more than once. That is not the full extent of his conversion. In 1947, he was joint author of a pamphlet entitled, "Keep Left".

It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.

Ordered,
That at this day's Sitting the Motion relating to the European Communities may be proceeded with, though opposed, until Two o'clock.—[The Prime Minister.]

Question again proposed,

Mr. Carr: I will not give any long quotation from that pamphlet but the


House might be interested to hear one sentence:
Thus, the true defence of the Commonwealth as an association of free peoples depends on the unification of Europe.
That was the hon. Gentleman's view, in which he was joined by no less a person than the hon. Member for Poplar (Mr. Mikardo) and also by the right hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman).

Mr. Russell Kerr: Mr. Russell Kerr rose—

Mr. Carr: The hon. Gentleman—

Mr. Russell Kerr: Mr. Russell Kerr rose—

Mr. Speaker: Order. If the right hon. Gentleman does not give way, the hon. Member for Feltham (Mr. Russell Kerr) must not persist.

Mr. Russell Kerr: That was in 1947.

Mr. Carr: Some of us are somewhat consistent in our views. The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale, in arguing that case, of course made clear that he wished to see the unity of the whole of Europe but he also argued that, since this could not be achieved in one stage, a unity of Western Europe was the first stage towards what he wished—not what he argues now, the opposite.
The objections put forward today from the Opposition Front Bench by both the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Gentleman have nothing whatever to do with Tory terms. Their objections are fundamental to the Common Market as such. To satisfy their objections, the six existing Common Market countries would have had to agree in negotiations not just to adapt and adjust their policies and institutions; they would have had to have given up the basic tenets on which the Community has lived and prospered over the last dozen years and on which they are determined to go into the future. No one could have known this better than the Labour Government when they made their application. They could not for one moment have expected the negotiations to have succeeded in persuading the Six to upset their basic policies and arrangements and institutions to a fraction of the extent which would be required to satisfy the current Opposition line, let alone to meet all the fears and objections and figures

used by the right hon. Member for Battersea, North.
Of course it is perfectly honourable for individual politicians at any level to change their minds, as the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale said. But to be credible in depth and integrity a change of mind has to be better argued and more convincingly presented than has been the case from the Opposition today. An occasional revelation, a single journey to Damascus, is respectable, but when a whole party goes in for a package tour the gullibility of onlookers is strained beyond endurance. Either the Labour Cabinet were dishonest and hypocritical, which I do not believe they were, when they made their application, and intended the application to fail, no matter how the negotiations went, or the majority of the members of that Cabinet are now stifling their true convictions about what is in the future interest of our people for the sake of peace and an attempt to get a spurious unity in their own party and for the sake of currying short-term popularity.
It is proper to draw the attention of this House and the country to the support and the bi-partisan attitude of the then Conservative Opposition on this great national matter when the Labour Government were in office, compared with the fractious, irresponsible, partisan and party political attitude of the Labour Opposition now.

Mr. Michael Foot: Would the right hon. Gentleman give us some indication whether, during his speech, he intends to defend the Government's case on its merits? That is what he ought to do.

Mr. Carr: Yes, indeed I do, and the hon. Gentleman will be glad to know—or perhaps he will be disturbed to know—that I was just about to do this; but I think an important aspect which this House and the country are entitled to take into account is the integrity and depth of the present views of the Opposition.
Many subjects, and aspects of the question, have been raised in today's debate. There are many with which I cannot now deal. For example, I cannot deal with the problems of the developing countries which were raised—for example, by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice), but by


others as well—except to say—and the right hon. Gentleman knows my past interest in this subject and my past connection with it—that I cannot believe and will not accept that our membership of the Common Market will lead either Britain or Europe to play a lesser rôle in this vital development in the world's affairs than we have done outside it. I believe that it will strengthen our ability to do so and I believe that it will strengthen and help Europe to do it. No single British politician has played a more constructive part than my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in developing constructive trading policies to help developing countries as he did in the first U.N.C.T.A.D. conference in 1964. Anybody who has had dealings with the under-developed world and with the problems of the under-developed world knows I am speaking the truth.
However, my job tonight is principally to give the House a view of the Government's considered opinion on those aspects of the question which we have to decide which fall within the field of responsibility of my own Department. First and foremost is the question of full employment. Of all the arguments for Britain's joining the European Economic Community one of the most compelling and, for the vast majority of ordinary people, perhaps, the most important, is the advantage that we believe membership can give us in achieving and maintaining full employment in the years ahead. Presumably that was also the view of the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues opposite—anyhow until a year ago.
First, before coming to the arguments and assessments about the future it is not a bad thing to see how successful the Common Market has already been in ensuring full employment. A little practical evidence is worth a great deal of theory. If the Common Market countries had been unsuccessful by this test of full employment there would indeed be serious cause for concern and scepticism, no matter what the theoretical arguments on paper might be. In fact, however, the Common Market has been highly successful in achieving and maintaining full employment—far more so than Britain in the last five or six years. In

1969, for the Community as a whole, the average unemployment rate was 1·8 per cent. In that year only Italy had an unemployment rate worse than that in Britain.

Mr. E. Fernyhough: Mr. E. Fernyhough (Jarrow) rose—

Mr. Carr: Only by Italy—and the long-term problems of Italy have long been known to be worse than those in any of the other countries. In 1970 the Community's average figure fell to 1·7 per cent. Incidentally—speaking from memory—the Italian level of unemployment fell from 3·4 per cent. in 1969 to 3·1 per cent. in 1970.
The conclusion from experience, therefore, is that in joining the Common Market we should clearly be joining a community in which the maintenance of full employment has had a high priority which has been achieved successfully in practice, a record which we can look to perhaps with envy now but with hope for the future.

Mr. Neil McBride: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Carr: I was about to give way to the right hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough).

Mr. Fernyhough: The right hon. Gentleman has answered the point I wished to make on unemployment. Unemployment in Italy this year has been far higher each month than in this country, even under a Tory Government. The right hon. Gentleman must face the fact that if there had been no public investment in the regions in Italy, unemployment would have been far worse, because no private capital has gone into the regions.

Mr. Carr: This does not alter the fact that, with the exception of Italy, total and average unemployment has been low in the Common Market countries, they have given a high priority to it and have had success. Even in Italy, the position has been improved relatively.
Turning to an assessment of the effect of Common Market membership—

Mr. McBride: Mr. McBride rose—

Mr. Carr: I am afraid that I cannot give way; many hon. Members want to speak. Turning now to an assessment of the effect of Common Market Membership on future levels of employment, it


seems to me that opponents of the Common Market overlook one of the basic facts of modern industrial life, namely, the great and constantly growing importance of free, unrestricted access to the largest possible market for one's goods and services.
Except for a few industries, the advantages of very large-scale units of production can be easily exaggerated. They may exist in theory, but they are seldom fully realised in practice. On the other hand, I believe that unrestricted access to the largest possible market brings advantages, even to comparatively small production units which are difficult to exaggerate and are easily underestimated. The size of market is more often than not the main spur to the adoption of the most refined and specialised methods of production. The truth of this can be seen in the whole trend of industrial history; but it is a truth whose dominating impact grows greater with the development of modern technology. This is a particularly critical problem for Britain.
The T.U.C. says that we should use our existing balance of payments surplus to finance an increase in the growth of output in this country, but it is no good producing what we cannot sell, and to keep Britain's industry working at full pressure we have to sell a large proportion of our output to customers outside our own national market. The great continental Powers, such as the United States and Russia, have vast markets within their own national boundaries. The much smaller nation States of Western Europe have now succeeded, by their establishment of the European Economic Community, in creating for themselves a home market of equivalent size. If we join that market we shall also enjoy that advantage, and we shall increase it. If we and the other applicants all join the Community we shall become part of the largest home market in the developed world, with all the opportunity in good times and security in bad times which membership of such a large and powerful trading unit can provide.
On the other hand, if we stay outside we shall, among the countries with a comparable standard of living, be left with one of the smallest home markets. That would be a perpetually dangerous position to be in. On our own, in the years ahead we should find it increasingly

difficult to sell the volume of output that we need to maintain full employment. If ever the cold winds blew of a world recession, or the post-war trend towards freer world trade were unfortunately to be reversed—a danger which is seen on the horizon at the moment, unfortunately—we in Britain would find ourselves dangerously exposed and in a very weak position to protect ourselves. This is a risk which we should not willingly take. We have the opportunity to protect ourselves against it and we should be mad to throw away that opportunity.
Some people argue—and it has teen argued in this debate today—that the creation of trading blocs is dangerous and that we ought to bend all our energies instead to promoting freer patterns of world trade. But by joining the European Community we are not creating a world of trading blocs. Such blocs already exist. The United States trading bloc already exists, as does the Russian and Eastern European trading bloc, and indeed as does the E.E.C. The choice we have is whether to join one of these great trading areas or whether to stay outside all of them.
Of course we have to use all our power and influence to resist any trend to protectionism, because no country stands more to gain than we do from freer trade. And we need to encourage the further growth of freer trade, but we shall be able to do this more effectively inside rather than outside the Community, because the Community exists.
As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said in winding up the debate in July, we must bear in mind the enormous power of the Community in international trade negotiations. When these negotiations take place the biggest influence is wielded by the biggest importing economies. Since the Community probably is the world's biggest single importer, its voice in such negotiations in future will be extremely powerful. If we are members of the Community we believe that in future we shall have a bigger influence in international trade negotiations and agreements than we could possibly have on our own outside these great trading areas.
Opponents of the Common Market speak as if the only momentous decision is the decision to join it. But, as I have been seeking to show, the decision not to join


it would be equally momentous. I am in no doubt that the opportunity in good times and the security in bad times are bath greater for Britain inside than outside the European Community. It is this judgment about the balance of opportunity and security which makes us believe with the utmost conviction that joining Europe gives us a better chance of maintaining a high and stable level of employment for our people than we can have outside it.
Since we believe that stable full employment is more important than any other single factor to a healthy and prosperous society, we believe that the argument about full employment alone is a decisive one in the great decision we have to take. Let us make no mistake that full employment depends on growth. And nowhere is this more true than in the regions where unemployment is at present at its highest.

Mr. Shore: Surely the right hon. Gentleman agrees that full employment bears not only on growth but also on the balance of payments. Will he please demonstrate to us how he thinks the balance of payments will be improved, and by how much, if we join the Common Market?

Mr. Carr: The Chancellor of the Exchequer dealt with these matters at great length in his speech.—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] If there are any further aspects which need to be covered, he will do so again when he speaks later in this debate.

Mr. John Mendelson: Do not believe it.

Mr. Carr: The arguments about the balance of payments and the advantages of joining are just as great as they were when the right hon. Gentleman's Government, of which he was a member, sought to join. But let us make no mistake that full employment depends on growth, and that is true more in the regions than anywhere else. No incentives to attract industry to the regions can be successful unless there is sufficient industry to attract.

Mr. Edward Milne: Mr. Edward Milne (Blyth) rose—

Mr. Carr: I want to get on. So far the most important condition to achieve

is the condition which allows for the greatest possible rate of growth. This intention is to be achieved inside Europe because of the accessibility and free access to the European market.

Mr. Milne: Mr. Milne rose—

Mr. Carr: I am sorry. I have already given way more than the right hon. Member for Battersea, North did.
I know that even if they accept this point, some hon. Members are still concerned that membership of Europe will weaken the vigour with which we can pursue our own regional policies. Others of my right hon. Friends will be speaking tomorrow and Wednesday, and they will address themselves to this question in detail. All I say is that there is no justification for this fear. All the types of policies that we have used in this country are being used in one or more of the European countries at the moment.
Moreover, we should remember that from the beginning it has been one of the declared objects of the Community, written into the Preamble of the Treaty of Rome itself, to ensure harmonious development of members' economies by reducing the differences existing between the various regions. That is one of the cardinal principles of the Common Market. The member countries are pursuing it actively, and there is no reason or justification for fearing that inside it we shall not be able to participate in that objective, and be helped in doing so.
Similarly, surely there can be no doubt, looking into Europe at the other areas for which I hold responsibility—the areas of real wages and real standards of living, industrial health and safety—that there is no danger but only possible benefit from association as a full member of the European Economic Community.

Mr. Milne: Mr. Milne rose—

Mr. Carr: I want to say a word about one more subject—

Mr. Milne: Mr. Milne rose—

Mr. John Mendelson: Give way.

Mr. Carr: Very well. I give way to the hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Milne)

Mr. Milne: In the right hon. Gentleman's illustration of the regional policies of the Six, he gave the House some


figures for Italy. Is he aware that if the same ratio prevailed in the northern region of England the unemployment figure there would be 30,000 higher than it is even under the Tories at the moment?

Mr. Carr: I see no reason why that figure should prevail. The northern region of England does not have problems of the serious and basic nature of those existing in southern Italy.

Dame Irene Ward: Will my right hon. Friend point out to the hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Milne) that both the right hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) and the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Bagier), who have very difficult unemployment positions, favour entering the Common Market because of the advantages to our part of the world?

Mr. Carr: We are confident that the extra growth that we can obtain as a member of Europe will enable us to deal more effectively with the problems of our regions than we shall be able to do outside it.
The free movement of labour is a matter which causes concern, especially outside the House. It is easy to appreciate the concern. But we believe that there is not likely to be a mass migration of labour on any scale that we could possibly find objectionable. The growing prosperity of the Community has meant that workers have not needed to move to other countries in order to find jobs. The high level of employment, coupled with social and language differences, has meant that the abolition of administrative barriers to the movement of workers within the Community has not resulted in the large increase that people feared. There has been a reduction in the past few years. The number of nationals of the Six member countries moving within the Community fell from about 250,000 in 1965 to under 170,000 in 1969.
We in Britain also have seen this decline in movement reflected in the falling number of work permits issued to workers from the Community countries who have sought to come and work in the United Kingdom. That number has fallen both in absolute terms and as a proportion of the total number of job permits issued in this country.
In view of all this the Government felt that there would be no reason to seek any transitional arrangements for the introduction of the free movement of labour provisions except in the case of Northern Ireland which, for a number of years, has had employment problems on a scale and of a kind which are special to itself and needed the benefit of that transitional period.
It is worth noting that the Government's views on this subject have been supported by the T.U.C. in both the reports which it has made regarding the Community. It is important that we should make it clear in this House that fears on this particular aspect at least need not cause alarm and that this view is shared by the T.U.C.
Joining the European Community is no magic cure. We have never held out that it was. But we believe, with the deepest conviction, that it gives us a better opportunity for a fuller life in terms of economic prosperity and political influence than we could possibly have outside.
From the point of view of the subjects for which I am responsible, particularly from the point of view of full employment, growth is paramount. The opposition to joining seems to us, and I believe to the country, to be coloured by three dominant characteristics. First, it is negative. No alternative is offered. If this is not the best way to get better growth in future, what is? The opponents do not make that clear at all. They certainly have not succeeded outside hitherto. [Interruption.] The mutterings coming from the Opposition Front Bench are interesting in view of their performance during six years in power.
The second characteristic of the Opposition is backward looking. I believe that every one of the right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite would have been against the Act of Union 250 years ago. Free capital movement between England and Scotland? How terrible! A common monetary system? How frightening!
This leads me to the third—

Mr. James Callaghan: The right hon. Gentleman was jibing at us by saying that we would not


have been in favour of a common monetary policy. Is he in favour of a common monetary policy in Europe now?

Mr. Carr: The right hon. Gentleman's Government, of which he was a leading member, made it clear that this was not objectionable when they made their application. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] We are no more, no less committed in this attitude than the Labour Government, of which the right hon. Gentleman was a leading member.
This backward-looking characteristic of the Opposition is complemented, and finally, I suppose, consummated, by their fundamental pessimism about and lack of confidence in Britain which they display in all their arguments. Every risk is seen at its worst and quantified at its maximum. If we cannot be absolutely sure, then we are told to stand still, as if there were no danger in standing still. We will always come off worst. Apparently, when the tariff barriers fall, for some reason, instead of British companies feeling that from a British base they can export more to Germany and to Europe, they will go in and serve the British market from Germany. What nonsense, what pessimism, what utter stupidity is it that lies in this kind of analysis?
Apparently we must be afraid of the Community. But if we cannot compete successfully with the European countries, which have labour standards and wage

costs somewhat higher than ours per hour, then who on earth can we compete with and what hope is there for this country? Of course we can compete, and the advantages of a larger market are the spur which we need. This pessimism and lack of confidence is not typical of the kind of Britain which I know or love or want to live in in future.
The responsibilities of Parliament collectively and of individual Members are different. We have to listen and take account of what we hear.
We also have a duty to make decisions and to lead. When we think of when my generation first became conscious of political events in our country and in the world, we think back to the 'thirties. What, in retrospect, was the greatest criticism? With the wisdom of hindsight, certainly the most severely justified criticism of Parliament, of the Government and of the parties was that we did not lead, that we followed too much, that we believed that we should not, and could not, lead the people to meet the occasions and the needs of the future.
I ask the House to remember that history, to give a lead now for the future. Among all the difficulties of weighing opinions, among all the objections, which are many, one thing stands out clearly and gives me at least hope and encouragement, and that is that the more I talk with younger people, the more I believe that they expect us to say "Yes" on Thursday.

10.31 p.m.

Mr. E. Fernyhough: I am sure that when the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Employment reads his speech tomorrow he will find that he has left us with not a little ammunition. Time and again the Prime Minister has stood at that Dispatch Box and said that it is the high wage cost of British industry that is holding us back. The Minister has just admitted that hourly wage rates are higher in Europe than they are here. If that be so, right hon. Gentlemen opposite can never again say that our problems are due to the high wages being demanded by British workers.

Hon. Members: What about productivity?

Mr. Fernyhough: Does the coal industry on the Continent have a record comparable with that of the British coal industry? The same question can be asked of the steel and agriculture industries on the Continent. From the point of view of costs and production, no major industry on the Continent does better than its counterpart in this country, so I invite hon. Gentlemen opposite not to interrupt me before I have even started my story.

Mr. Tom Normanton: The right hon. Gentleman referred to the coal industry in this country. Has he studied the views expressed by leaders of this industry? They have publicly stated their intention of supporting Britain's entry into the Common Market.

Mr. Fernyhough: The men in charge of this industry say that next year, when we are in the Common Market, we shall export millions of tons of coal to Europe, but this year we are importing coal because we are not mining enough of it ourselves here. Did anyone ever hear such nonsense? We are to export coal to Europe next year, even though we are not producing enough this year to meet our own needs, and as a result we have been importing coal, some from as far away as Australia. I have read what Mr. Ezra and others have said, but they are like hon. Gentlemen opposite. They are groping hopefully. They have no apprehensions about what the future is likely to hold.
Let me start with one simple proposition. We are told that we are bottom of the league in production, and bottom of the league in exports. We are at the bottom of almost every league, but there is one league of which we have been at the top in every post-war year, and that is in expenditure on defence. No Common Market country, over the last 10 to 20 years, has spent anything like the same percentage of its gross national product on defence as we have. If we had spent that money on tooling up, on industrial investment, on the social services and education, as they have done, we should not be in this bad position. Like the ordinary householder, the nation cannot spend its money twice. So long as we carry this burden, so long shall we be the sick nation of Europe. Our hands are tied. We are shackled. How can we compete in these circumstances?
Every time that this country has been in difficulties, under whatever Government, we have pulled out the crystal ball and seen in it Europe as the panacea, the place where there would be no difficulties. But I should like some consistency from the Government. This year's Defence White Paper said:
Britain's political and trading interests are world-wide.
And we are going to cut back—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It is no good saying, "No." We shall have to put up tariffs against some of those who are now our trading partners.
Of course, everyone says that it will be so simple. The Secretary of State talked of a large home market, as though that were the answer to all our problems. I do not know whether he has studied Britain's biggest exporter, the car industry. We have a home market of 100 million people because we can export to E.F.T.A. countries without any tariff barrier to jump. But with a barrier to jump, Germany exported three times as much to E.F.T.A. countries as we did in 1970. How much better will Germany do when the barrier is down for her too?

Mr. Laurance Reed: Does not this serve to underline how feeble E.F.T.A. is for us and how helpful the Common Market is for Germany?

Mr. Fernyhough: No, it merely goes to show that British industry will be less competitive. If we cannot outsell them when we have no barrier and they have, how will we compete when everyone is on equal terms?

Mr. Maddan: Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that, in 1970, the British car industry was very badly hit by strikes, a fact which, of course, had its effect on our exports?

Mr. Fernyhough: I would admit that, but even the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry today was talking about our car exports having risen 10 per cent. this August over last. But he did not add that this August the import of foreign cars was the highest for any month since foreign cars have been coming into the country. We compete in the American market on the same basis as E.E.C. countries compete there, and those countries have exactly the same barriers to jump as we have.
Bearing that in mind, would any hon. Gentleman opposite care to explain why the Germans sell three times as many cars to America as we do? I will explain why—[Interruption.]—and it has nothing to do with a bigger home market. [Laughter.] Nor is this a laughing matter. I am prepared to stand here all night if hon. Gentlemen opposite want a bit of fun.
The answer is simply that the Germans have always put exports first, if necessary by denying their own market to ensure meeting export demands. The Labour Government did exactly the same in 1951. Sir Stafford Cripps said, "Export or there is no steel for you", and they exported. Between 60 per cent. and 70 per cent. of their total output went into exports.
Then the rot set in, with the arrival in government of the Conservative Government that followed. They swept away the restrictions, and naturally the home market proved more profitable than foreign markets. Markets which could have been ours for virtually all time were handed over to the Germans. They got them for nothing, simply because they were prepared to meet export commitments before supplying their home market.

Mr. Alan Haselhurst: Amid all these counsels of

gloom, how does the right hon. Gentleman explain that the British motor industry is anxious that we enter the Common Market? Is he aware that the industry believes that unit production will be up by 280,000 by 1980 as a result of our entry?

Mr. Fernyhough: Certainly, and I have with me Lord Stokes' full page advertisement about that. I have great respect for Donald Stokes and his colleagues, but they already have manufacturing capacity there, and that will be expanded. Anybody who imagines that they will expand in Dundee rather than Dusseldorf does not understand the trade.

Mr. Selwyn Gummer: Would the right hon. Gentleman explain why, when the tariff is removed, they should rush to produce their cars in an area when there is already no tariff advantage, whereas in fact, if the tariff is kept on, that will be precisely the reason why Lord Stokes and his colleagues would wish to go to the Continent? Actually, by joining the Common Market, the motor trade would have every incentive to produce in this country.

Mr. Fernyhough: The hon. Gentleman is forgetting transport costs. Consider the added cost of producing cars here when they must be transported 500 or 800 miles to be sold. Anybody who thinks transport costs of that nature do not matter should speak to the Austrians, as I did recently. I asked why they bought four times as many cars from the Germans as from us, and their answer was simply the nearness of the German factories. That difficulty will not be overcome if we join the Community.
If a large home market is essential and if this country can be viable only on the basis of an enlarged market—if growth, full employment and all the other wonderful things of which the Minister spoke will come about only from such a market—can somebody please explain the progress of Japan, which has a smaller market than we have, including E.F.T.A.? [AN HON. MEMBER: "It is bigger."] Japan has, if not a smaller market, then a market no bigger than ours. I said that it was smaller. I bow to superior ignorance. If Japan is a market of the same size, why has she not had these problems? There has been growth in Japan, but she has had none of these


problems; nor is she seeking any great enlargement. Japan has been sensible. Japan has not gone in for Concordes or T.S.R.2's, and she has not spent 5, 6 or 7 per cent. of her wealth on defence. On average, she has spent 2 per cent. of her gross national product on defence. Everyone wonders why she is more competitive and is capturing markets all over the world.

Mr. Norman Tebbit: Mr. Norman Tebbit (Epping) rose—

Mr. Fernyhough: I will not give way. The hon. Gentleman never makes an intelligent observation.
If anyone believes that Japan's prosperity and growth is in no way due to the fact that she has not tried to spend her money twice, in that she has not spent millions and millions of pounds on defence to the extent that we have, they do not understand the ordinary basis of economics.
It is said that we shall have a lovely time with the free movement of labour and capital, and everyone pretends that there is no difference. The man who has never had to tear up his roots and to walk the streets seeking a job, cannot be compared with a man who has only to sign a cheque to transfer his capital; they are different persons—[Interruption.] Get on your feet.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): Order.

Mr. Fenryhough: I am asking an hon. Gentleman to get on his feet.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member must not ask me to get on my feet.

Mr. Fernyhough: I am talking about a constituency which today has a high level of unemployment. Forty years ago the constituency was half as big again in population as it is today. The people have had to tear up their roots and transplant themselves. Even in the Common Market propaganda some have suggested that this was one of the great advantages. Those employers of labour in Sunderland do not agree with what was said by the hon. Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward). If one asks shipbuilders in Sunderland whether they want to enter the Common Market, one will find what their answer is. The shipbuilding industry is the biggest employer of labour in Sunderland.

Mr. Tebbit: Mr. Tebbit rose—

Mr. Fernyhough: I want the hon. Gentleman to save his strength and not to get restless.—[Interruption.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order.

Mr. Fernyhough: I am glad that you are calling for order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because, after all, I have not been allowed to start. The interruptions have been incessant and persistent, but I intend to say what I have to say.
Our workers are told that they are £7 a week worse off than they would have been had we been in the Common Market. They are told that they get less holidays and poorer social services, and that they work longer hours. Does anyone really believe that?

Mr. Selwyn Gummer: Yes.

Mr. Fernyhough: Does anyone believe that regarding holidays they are so much worse off?

Mr. Selwyn Gummer: Yes.

Mr. Fernyhough: Does anyone believe that our workers work longer hours?

Hon. Members: Yes.

Mr. Fernyhough: Then why do hon. Members oppose their wage claims?—[Interruption.] Is it because we are not in the Common Market? That is marvelous. I will tell the workers that they are fools and that the Tories—every one of them—admit that they are £7 a week worse off, that they are working longer hours and getting shorter holidays, and that, therefore, there is every justification for every worker in Britain to put in his claim.
Are Common Market agricultural workers more efficient than ours? Are their steel workers more efficient than ours? Of course not. Consider the prices. Are their miners more efficient than ours? We know that in those three basic industries our costs are lower than those in the Common Market. Yet it is pretended that British workers would have been getting £7 a week more and working fewer hours and having longer holidays.
When we get into the Common Market we shall belong to a trading group which


embraces one-twelfth of the world's population. Eleven-twelfths of the world's population is outside the Common Market. In the Defence White Paper the Government said that we are world traders. We are now rejecting eleven-twelfths of the world to have favourable terms from one-twelfth.

Sir John Rodgers: In saying that the Common Market represents only one-twelfth of the world's population the right hon. Gentleman overlooks the 50 nations that have associated or special status with the Common Market.

Mr. Fernyhough: I am talking about world population. Including all the associated States, the Common Market still represents little more than one-twelfth of the world's population. There are 3,500 million people in the world. [Interruption.] If the Common Market population was 350 million, it would still represent only one-tenth of the world's population and that would leave nine-tenths in which we would not be interested—[Interruption.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I must ask the right hon. Gentleman to address his remarks to me, because otherwise it is difficult to prevent that most objectionable parliamentary practice of sedentary interjection, from which we are suffering at the moment.

Mr. Fernyhough: I accept that, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I thought that the purpose of having a Deputy Speaker was to prevent people from making sedentary interjections and to keep them in order.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The purpose of my interrupting the right hon. Gentleman was to remind him that if he would address his remarks to me the sedentary interjections would not be so prevalent.

Mr. Fernyhough: Mr. Deputy Speaker, you have a much higher regard for the supposed good manners of hon. Gentlemen than I have. I have been here a little longer than you. I have seen them come and go, but I have seen no basic improvement in their general manners. So it does not in any way upset or trouble me.
The Common Market will represent one-tenth or one-twelfth of the world's

population. The other eleven-twelfths of the world is outside the Market. When we are in, we shall still be doing as much trade with the Commonwealth as we did last year with the E.E.C. If our trade with the Commonwealth has declined, I hope that hon. Members understand why. For instance, ten years ago when Ghana exported one ton of cocoa it was able to import one tractor. This year Ghana has had to export 10 tons of cocoa to buy one tractor. No wonder Commonwealth trade declines when the price of primary products falls and the price of manufactures increases. This means that Commonwealth countries will buy less.
It also assumes that this is a static world and that it will remain as it is now. I do not believe that. A very prosperous Europe can be built, but if the standards of the two-thirds of the world which is at present going hungry are not improved the prosperity, not only of Europe, but of the world, is in danger. Hungry men are angry men, and angry men are irresponsible men. It does not matter whether it is tomorrow or next year, or a decade from now; angry men will do in these territories what they have done throughout world history. They will revolt and, because of the world situation today, when they revolt there is always the danger that they will bring down with them the citadels of every prosperous community.
One of the most objectionable features of the Government's application to join the Common Market is what we have done in relation to the old Commonwealth countries, New Zealand and Australia in particular. Of course, we have negotiated a transitional period for them. We have said, "For three or four years your interests will be safeguarded", and after that they will be expected to seek new markets or to diversify their industry. Anything which reduces food production is sacrilege. I believe that Australia and New Zealand will have to diversify and cut down on their production of primary products, particularly food. If they have to cut down at a time when everybody is concerned about the problem of hunger and world poverty, it is sacrilege, it is indefensible and it is too high a price for any intelligent civilised nation to be expected to pay.
Hon. Members say that when we get in, we shall influence them—as though we, the Socialists alone, were going in. It is they, the Tories—hon. Members opposite—who are going to represent us. They are the gentlemen who are going to exercise their influence in Europe. The present Government attack the unemployed, the sick and the industrially injured; they take away the school milk. They have got their priorities wrong. Anybody who believes that they are the kind of Government whom I can trust to negotiate for me should have another think.
My fear is that they might influence the Europeans to follow their very bad uncivilised conduct. They might induce them to attack the things which are near and dear to their own people. [Interruption]. If the hon. Member would take that plum out of his mouth I should be able to hear him better.

Mr. T. H. H. Skeet: I was wondering whether the hon. Member was trying to talk the Motion out. He has been on his feet for well over half an hour.

Mr. Fernyhough: If the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends had rather better manners and had listened a little more quietly and without interruption my speech would have been shorter, but I want to make it perfectly clear that I have had too many barrackings from hon. Members opposite to let them get me down. They tend to sustain me. They provoke me. It merely means that I continue.
The idea that there is no future for Britain except as part of what will be the biggest concentration of capitalist States now existing is nonsense. I am a Socialist. I believe in Clause Four. I believe with Nye Bevan that unless we control the commanding heights of the economy we cannot control our own destiny. I want us to capture those commanding heights. I know that we shall not be able to do it if we go into Europe. Because I believe that it is possible to build Socialism here and then to have it spread across frontiers for other people to enjoy, I am against our joining the E.E.C.

11.2 p.m.

Mr. Gilbert Longden: In his rather long speech

the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough) said that he would like some consistency from the Government. I wonder what he wants from his own Front Bench? I really seriously considered making my speech on this issue using only words which had been used, and not very long ago, by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and the right hon. Gentlemen the Members for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) and for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan). If I had, it would have made a very cogent and compelling case, but it would have been far too long. From the outward appearance of these three right hon. Gentlemen one would gather that a gargantuan feast of one's own words was a very healthy diet. For, since those brave and true words were uttered, and very recently, they and several of their colleagues with them, have scuttled into the protection of Scanlon's sheep below the Gangway, and I do not suppose the history of Parliament can show a greater example of tergiversation than that displayed by the Leader of the Opposition. His every other action belies his every other word. Only the week before last—and I told the right hon. Gentleman that I would, if I had the privilege of catching your eye, Mr. Speaker, refer to him briefly, though, I feared, unfavourably—he was talking of "undemocratic arm-twisting" on this side. He must have seen a great deal more than we did—and what has he since been doing to his own side?

Mr. Fernyhough: We remember Suez.

Mr. Longden: I am particularly anxious not to offend the right hon. Gentleman because, if I did, I might cause him to walk out on me, which would reduce my total audience on the other side of the House by one-tenth.
If the damage done by the actions of the Leader of the Opposition was only to himself and some of his colleagues, it would not matter. But such behaviour cannot do anything but harm to the reputation of politics and politicians. It is for that reason that I so deeply deplore it.
These strictures do not apply to the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) who I am sorry is not in his place. I would have thanked him for giving way to me. I think I asked him a


fair question and I do not think it was properly answered. These strictures do not apply either to most of the hon. and right hon. Members who are against our entry on this side of the House. They have been consistent throughout, albeit, as I think, consistently wrong. I once ventured to describe their vision as being impaired by myopic nostalgia, by Mittylike dreams, and where there is no vision the people perish.

Mr. Clinton Davis: Do the hon. Gentleman's strictures apply equally to the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and his remarkable maiden speech?

Mr. Longden: I admit, with great respect to my right hon. Friend, that I cannot remember his maiden speech.

Mr. Clinton Davis: Mr. Clinton Davis rose—

Mr. Longden: No, I will not give way again. Admittedly there are only 10 hon. Members opposite to whom I can give way, but once per person is enough. I have always believed, with Sir Winston Churchill, that much greater unity in Europe is essential to the security and well-being not only of Europe but of the whole Atlantic Alliance. I was writing and speaking about a united Europe long before this party applied to join the Community and when, on 31st July, 1961, Mr. Macmillan announced this decision to the House I observed, adopting a Bevanism, that
…everyone who has not got to be dragged kicking and screaming into the second half of the twentieth century will welcome this belated decision to negotiate terms … which are to the mutual benefit of this country, the Commonwealth, the Seven and the Atlantic Alliance."—[Official Report, 31st July, 1961; Vol. 645, c. 936.]
It has taken 10 years to negotiate such terms, so it has not been sprung upon an unsuspecting nation. In every Conservative election manifesto since then we have expressly declared that if we could get such terms we would join the Six. All parties have at one time or another, and this party consistently, accepted the Treaty of Rome and the common agricultural policy. In 1967 this became the official policy of the Labour Party and it renewed the negotiations which had twice been vetoed by de Gaulle. Now, in 1971, my right hon. and learned Friend the Chan-

cellor of the Duchy has negotiated terms which the Government consider they can recommend to this House. That is what was meant by the election manifesto which said that our commitment was to negotiate, no more and no less: that if we succeeded, the proper place to bring those terms was to this forum of the elected representatives of the people. Now terms have been negotiated which the Government consider they can recommend to this House; and which all Labour ex-Ministers who were concerned with the earlier negotiations, with one lamentable exception, have repeatedly declared they would have accepted too.
The world may be a better or a worse place than it was 40 years ago, but it is certainly a totally different place and the once sovereign independent States of Europe, whose sovereign independence incidentally has been responsible for so many wars, now count for little in world counsels. "The Triangular Power Struggle" was the title of a recent radio programme dealing with the United States, the Soviet Union and China. Europe was nowhere, yet Europe is the origin of so much that is of lasting value in our culture and civilisation. So much that happens ail over the world affects us so vitally in Europe. Western Europe alone is as rich as any of the "super" Powers in experience and in human and material resources. It is wrong and damaging that she should be ignored in this way.
I say "Western Europe"; but the Treaty of Rome invites "any European state" to apply for membership of the Community. It is only the imperialist grip of the Soviet Union which prevents the self-styled Socialist States of Eastern Europe from doing so. Nor should we forget that over 20 States all over the world, but especially in Africa, are already associated with the E.E.C., and that if we and the other three applicants were to join there would be over 50 States so associated. A strong Europe must be much better able to help the developing world. Already the record of the E.E.C. is much better than ours alone and together it could be better still.

Mr. Fernyhough: I agree that it is better but if we had only spent on defence what they have spent, we could have


done far more in the very direction that the hon. Gentleman is referring to.

Mr. Longden: The developing States are not going to be helped if the stronger States in the Western world, such as Britain, are not able to defend themselves. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister stressed this aspect of the subject of aid at the Singapore Conference. How the right hon. Gentleman can possibly think that the developing world will be better off with us out of Europe than in, I do not know.
But when all is said and done, it must be the interests of this country which come first, and I believe that to join the E.E.C. is the best way to secure what the White Paper describes as the "prime objective" of any British Government—namely,
…to safeguard the security and prosperity of the United Kingdom and its peoples.
First, then, security. I doubt whether one in a hundred of those outside the House who oppose our entry have read even the Preamble of the Treaty of Rome. It expresses the determination of the signatories
…to establish the foundations of an ever closer union among the European peoples.
When Mr. Harold Macmillan was introducing this subject to the House in 1961 he said:
This is a political as well as an economic issue …".
At no time has there been any attempt to hide that.
Although the Treaty of Rome is concerned with economic matters it has an important political objective, namely, to promote unity stability in Europe which is so essential, a factor in the struggle for freedom and progress throughout the world."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st July, 1961; Vol. 645, c. 928.]
That is why I cannot understand my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South-West (Mr. Powell) in his book against the Common Market—I gave him notice of what I intended to say and he was graciously pleased to allow me to quote this passage, in fact, he went on to say that I could quote the whole book, but I think that would strain your patience, Mr. Speaker as it would certainly strain mine—writes:
Meanwhile it had become clear that the Community, if indeed it survived at all, would be something quite different from a free trade area.

That is his explanation why he changed his mind between 1965 and now. But he must have known that it was never meant to be only a free trade area.
I have read one part of the Preamble to the Treaty:
… to establish the foundations of an ever closer union among the European peoples.
It goes on
…to confirm the solidarity that binds Europe and overseas countries and to ensure the development of their prosperity…
And it resolves
…to strengthen the cause of peace and liberty …
by establishing this combination of resources.
Peace and liberty! Anyone can have peace without liberty, and our liberty is threatened. I do not believe that the Communists' objectives, imperialist and ideological, have changed at all, although the means by which they seek to achieve them may and do change from time to time. I believe that détente is just one of those means. At the Communist Party Congress this year, Mr. Brezhnev appeared to conceive a detente merely as an expedient to avoid war until there has been what he described as
… the full triumph of the Socialist cause all over the world.
He added that
this is inevitable and we shall not spare ourselves in the fight for this triumph.
What Mr. Brezhnev means by the "Socialist cause" is not what right hon. Members opposite believe. Mr. Brezhnev means by the triumph of the Socialist cause the political straitjacket and the hopelessly inefficient Socialist economic system.
Of course, there remain other means. The Institute of Strategic Studies tells us that the Soviet army is the most powerful that any State has ever maintained in peace time, while its navy, and especially its submarine fleet, is increasing daily. I wonder why. I believe, too, that before we are very much older the American forces will have left the Continent, and' that, if there is another war in Europe, it will not be nuclear, in which case we should have to be prepared to defend ourselves with so-called conventional forces. Not one of us could do that alone. Together we might be able to, if we have the will. Only a few weeks ago, my right


hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said that
there are bigger question marks hanging over the security and political future of Europe today than in any previous time.
Yet the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Jarrow asks, why spend money on defence?

Mr. Fernyhough: The hon. Gentleman should not be unfair. What I said was that we were at the top of the league for defence expenditure, expressed as a percentage of the gross national product. In other words, no other nation in Europe had borne a burden of the weight we had.

Mr. Longden: The last thing I want to do is to be unfair to the right hon. Gentleman, but I thought he said we were spending far too much on defence.
It must be obvious that a united Europe will be better able to keep these aggressive forces in their proper place than an old-fashioned alliance between sovereign States, which has never yet prevented war. If we all were to insist upon going our own way it would not be very long before that way was the Kremlin's way.
Secondly, prosperity. To me it seems obvious that a home market of 250 million instead of 55 or even 100 million must enormously increase the opportunities open to our commerce and industry and technology; but, what is much more relevant, that is the considered opinion of the overwhelming majority of the 12,000 members of the C.B.I., including its Small Firms Council, after a
process of testing industrial opinion on this matter which set a new standard in thoroughness".
Our chambers of commerce wrote a letter to M.P.s dated 14th October saying that
at their recent National Council meeting came out heavily in favour of entry into the E.E.C.
The City of London, which earns hundreds of millions in invisible exports, is also strongly in favour; while the National Farmers' Union, in its latest letter to M.P.s says that the union
is neither pro nor anti, but believes that agriculture cannot be regarded as an obstacle to entry.
Who am I, and who, for that matter, is the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West, to say that these producers of the nation's wealth are wrong?
The right hon. Lady the Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart), yesterday in Trafalgar Square, I read in the paper, said she does not wish to go into the Common Market because it will benefit capitalists and big business. I do not want to go so far as to say "what suits General Motors suits America", but the fact of the matter is that a nation does depend on its wealth producers, and what is good for them should be good for us.
Of course, it is true that our joining on the terms negotiated, or on any terms, will do no more than open the doors of opportunity. It will be a challenge, a springboard, not a featherbed. If we have indeed lost our one-time pride in proving that "British is best"; our capacity to give a good day's work for a good day's wage; if we have fallen a prey to those whose hidden aim it is to cripple and demoralise us as a nation, then we shall not benefit from these greater opportunities. But in that case our plight outside the Community would be even worse. Of course it is true, too, that all these potential gains will have to be paid for. The price is estimated as nearly as possible in the White Paper, and all I have time to do now is to repeat the words of Lord George-Brown when he said in another place:
For myself, I believe that the terms are acceptable … I believe that the price is within our capacity. I believe that the.. benefits are well worth paying for."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 26th July, 1971; Vol. 323, c. 58.]
Finally, a few words in reply to some of the objections raised. From the very first, although a convinced Marketeer, I have always said that we cannot ditch the Commonwealth, especially New Zealand and the sugar producers of the Commonwealth as a whole. Mr. MacMillan in his first speech said:
I do not think that Britain's contribution to the Commonwealth will be reduced if Europe unites. On the contrary, I think that its value will be enhanced."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st July, 1961; Vol. 645, c. 929.]
The Director-General of the Commonwealth, Mr. Arnold Smith, a Canadian, wrote last month:
It is sometimes suggested in this country and elsewhere that if Britain joins the E.E.C. there will inevitably be a fatal weakening of the Commonwealth. I do not agree … and only regret that she did not do so much earlier.


Mr. Luxton, the Director of the Federation of Commonwealth Chambers of Commerce, in a letter to The Times in June said:
On the contrary, the enlarged E.E.C. is likely to become the most powerful trading bloc in the world, and Britain's membership of it should permit Britain herself to play a more dynamic rôle in the Commonwealth of the future, particularly in the greatest and most intractable of all the world's problems, the relationship between the developing and the developed countries.
As to New Zealand, her Deputy Prime Minister's smiling face as he stepped off the aeroplane with my right hon. and learned Friend told its own story; while the Prime Minister, Mr. Holyoake, has described the terms as a major concession to New Zealand and, a result which is "highly satisfactory".
As to the Commonwealth sugar producers, the Chairman of the West Indian Sugar Association, the High Commissioner for Fiji, and Lord Campbell of Eskan have all expressed themselves as entirely satisfied with the terms which my right hon. and learned Friend has negotiated. One of them has even used the words "bankable assurances", and was satisfied that they have got them.
I can only agree with the Foreign Editor of The Sunday Times when he wrote on 27th June, 1971:
It beats me, unless the meaning of words can be held to be changed according to the speaker and the place, how anyone can now continue to argue that the settlements are unacceptable and a reason for turning down British entry.
As to the effect on pensioners, I am sorry that the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Ewing) is not in his place, because he made a most agreeable and sincere speech. I hope he will take it from me that we who want to go into the Common Market do so because we believe that we shall thereby be able to help these people of whom he was talking the more effectively.
The Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer are pledged to protect pensioners from increases in the cost of living, small though they say these increases are likely to be. In the Six, retirement pensions are tied to the cost of living and changes are made in six weeks or so, not taking six months as they do here. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services, in answer to an interjection from me on Friday, said that he would speed things

up. There is no earnings rule. The avowed intention of the Treaty is that in time all social services should be harmonised.
Our National Health Service will be unaffected, whilst the value-added tax, which we are to introduce in 1973 whether or not we go into Europe, and which will replace both purchase tax and S.E.T., is not to be applied to foodstuffs.

Sir George Sinclair: Will my hon. Friend say whether harmonising the social services means harmonising upwards only, because I believe that is the intention?

Mr. Longden: So far as I have always been aware, that is certainly the intention.
One last word about the effect on sovereignty. What is sovereignty? It is the right to do what one likes. How can one do what one likes if one has not got the power to do it? We shall be pooling part of our sovereignty in order to gain greater power over our future. It has no effect at all on our criminal law and most of our domestic civil law and, as the Prime Minister assured me in June, where a country considers that a question is of major national interest to itself the decision on that question must be taken unanimously.
Of course it will be a great adventure; an attempt to find a new rôle for this country which its history and traditions and its national character should enable it to fulfil to the advantage of all. The alternative is impotence.
I will end with two quotations, from very different sources:
It is the common interest of all of us (Europeans) to achieve economic unity. But if this cannot be achieved, we can stand on our own feet. At a heavy price for Britain no doubt, but at a heavier price for Europe—and at a devasting price for Europe's influence in the world.
That was from a speech by the Leader of the Opposition two years ago.
My final quotation is as follows:
The dogmas of the past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty and we must rise with it. We must think and act anew.
That was President Lincoln, in a message to the American Congress just 100 years ago. I believe that it is true today as it was then.

Several Hon. Members: Several Hon. Members rose—

Mr. Speaker: Order. Together, the last two speeches from the back bench took 54 minutes If I was allowed to comment on the length of speeches, I should be tempted to say that the right hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough) and the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. Longden) are nearly as bad as Front Bench Speakers. I hope that hon. Members will keep their speeches brief.

11.25 p.m.

Mr. Kenneth Lomas: This is not the occasion for arguing the case for going into Europe or for staying out of it. We have all made up our minds. What we are doing in this debate is saying why we take the attitudes that we do. It is our duty to explain to our constituents and to our party as well as to Members of this House why we believe, or do not believe, that the country should join the Common Market on the terms which have been negotiated.
I believe that we should. I admit to being a recent convert to this concept, but, as a result of study and discussions in my constituency since the terms were published, I have come to the view that it would be to the advantage of Britain and its people if we went into the Common Market.
I regret that no Opposition Front Bench spokesman today has yet made it clear that the Labour Party is not anti-Europe. At our annual conference at Brighton, a resolution which called for the rejection of Europe on any terms was defeated by more than a million votes. For that reason, it is strange that my colleagues in the Shadow Cabinet should have chosen my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) and my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) as today's main Opposition spokesmen if the argument is about the terms. They are both opposed to joining Europe on any terms. Let me remind my right hon. and hon. Friends that those who oppose entry on any terms are as much against official Labour Party policy as those like me who believe that we should go in on the terms negotiated.
I agree that the terms are not ideal. I believe that they could have been im-

proved under a Labour Government. But I am persuaded in favour of entry, first, because every single person appointed by the then Prime Minister, the present Leader of the Opposition, to be Foreign Secretary or the Government's Minister in charge of European negotiations from 1964 onwards is on record as saying that the present terms would have been acceptable to the Labour Government, and I do not think that they can all be wrong.
I regret that hon. Members on this side of the House are not to be allowed a free vote in the full meaning of the word, so that we could express our true opinions.
There is the world of difference between a negotiating position that one takes up and the eventual settlement that is reached. Any trade unionist who has been involved in negotiations accepts that the whole purpose of negotiating is to reach some kind of compromise and agreed solution. I believe that that is what has been done.
In common with other hon. Members, I held many meetings in my constituency during the recess. I appealed to my constituents to write giving me their views on whether Britain should join the Common Market. I must put on record the fact that, despite an intensive campaign to get people to write me about the subject, in the course of the last three months I have received less than 50 letters. I concede immediately that the majority of them were against, but equally I cannot accept 50 letters as a representative cross-section of my constituency of over 50,000.
I have received advice on this issue from hon. Members and others from all quarters, but at the end of the day I have been compelled to make a judgment on the facts as I see them, whether or not it agrees with people in my party or anywhere else. As one hon. Member said earlier today, I am not prepared to be either whipped in or whipped out of the Market. This is a matter which we have to think through and not just treat as a party political occasion.
I represent Huddersfield, West, a constituency with a great number of textile workers within it. There can be no doubt and no argument that the trade union which represents the woollen textile workers in my constituency is in favour of going into Europe and that the


management of the woollen textile industry is in favour of going in. Both union and management recognise that if we can break through the tariff wall there is scope and opportunity to expand and develop our trade in quality goods. On a parochial point, I believe that Huddersfield can produce such goods better than any other area in the world.
At the same time, management has a great responsibility to become more dynamic if it is to take advantage of the opportunities that entry into the Common Market has to offer. It is time that management in many of our industries shook the dust from its feet and re-equipped and revitalised our industries. It is futile to imagine that Britain can face the challenge of the 1970s, the 1980s and the 1990s still using the tools, the looms, and the machinery that my grandfather used in the textile industry at the turn of the century. This is happening. It is an indictment of British industry that, for example, in the mills in my constituency one does not find machines which are made in Britain; they are made in Switzerland, Sweden, Germany, America, or in Canada. It is time that we in this country got down to the job of producing the tools which are needed for our basic industries.
I believe that it is wishful thinking to imagine that we could have a General Election on the Common Market issue. This is a nonsense. I do not think that we would have had a General Election on it. However, there is a case for putting down an official Opposition Amendment—and I wish we had—in the terms of the Amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton), which unfortunately has not been called, saying that this House
recognising the unique character of the decision on entry to the European Economic Community, and understanding the sincerely held opinions dividing Members of all political parties, deplores the fact that the present economic and social policies of Her Majesty's Government are so divisive, so unjust and so inequitable, causing massive unemployment and a soaring cost of living, and resulting in a total collapse of confidence in Her Majesty's Government, therefore calls on Her Majesty's Government, in accordance with promises made by the Prime Minister concerning the will of the people, to hold a General Election forthwith on all these policies".
This is what I should have liked, because the policies of the present Government have been a disaster for the nation.

The policies which they have pursued have led to a cold, calculated, callous attitude which has allowed unemployment to rise to close on 1 million while at the same time they have stood idly by and let the cost of living soar and done very little about it.
If we on this side of the House are to retain our individual integrity and the creditability of our party, of which I am proud to have been a member for over 25 years, I believe that we should have said to the electorate, "Yes, we reluctantly accept the terms which have been negotiated. Of course, we could have improved them, but we believe that our place is inside Europe". Then, confident that a Labour Government would be returned at the next General Election in 1973 or 1974, we would have been responsible for between 70 and 90 per cent. of the negotiations when we got in.
I believe that if we get inside Europe we have an opportunity, not only in terms of economic growth, political unity and a political attitude towards each other, but the opportunity of furthering the cause of détente and of backing up the policies of the Ostpolitik put forward by Willy Brandt. I believe that the way to shape our destiny and the future of Europe is for us to be inside.
It has been said by some of my hon. and right hon. Friends that if we join Europe we shall be joining a capitalist club. I do not deny that. But we live in a capitalist society, in a capitalist world. The only way to change it is by going into it and beating capitalism from within, without becoming an offshore island of Europe, or a satellite of the United States. I implore my colleagues to lift up their eyes and see the advantages which will accrue from a Labour Britain working with her Social Democrat colleagues in Europe.
A few weeks ago I had the opportunity to go to Canada with the North Atlantic Assembly. I met there many Social Democrats from the continent. Without exception they said, "We want you in." They want us in because they believe we can work together. Surely that is what the Labour Party is about. We should work together as international Socialists to create some kind of control of the monolithic, multi-national companies. Do not let us turn our backs on our colleagues in Europe.

Mr. Eric Deakins: Would not my hon. Friend extend the argument, to say, "Why should we turn our backs on our far more successful Social Democrat colleagues in Sweden?"

Mr. Lomas: There is no reason why we should. That is begging the question. We are not turning our backs on them. Here we have an opportunity of going into a community which will enable us to begin to formulate the policies in which we believe. For far too long the people of Europe have been divided by class and nationality. Britain, who has lost her Imperial rôle, has a rôle to play inside Europe. We can play that rôle in helping to break down the barriers. Also, inside Europe we can help the underdeveloped and the developing areas of the world, and increase our trade. I am sure that their peoples are entitled to a decent standard of living, and the E.E.C. can enhance that possibility.
In spite of the short-term disadvantages and problems I believe that it is right and proper for us to join. If we do not join now the opportunity may never come again. We must face up to that now.
I know that far too many times in the past I have had the carpet pulled from under me when I have agreed and supported my party in Government; this time I am sticking to my view. This time they can change their minds. I do not normally defy a three-line Whip—unlike some of my colleagues who are now telling me that I should obey it. We should try as best we can to make the best of Europe. Whatever I do on 28th October—whether I vote for Europe or abstain—I do not want anyone to take it as an indication that I am supporting the Tory Government. As far as I am concerned, this is apart from party politics.
I believe that if a Labour Government had brought back similar terms from Brussels I should be in the Lobby supporting them. I shall continue to fight the Tories and all the squalor and misery for which they stand. What I have to do is to determine my attitude on the ground of personal conviction, and on the ground of consistency, integrity and credibility, bearing in mind the wishes of my constituents. I believe that Britain has a rôle to play inside Europe, and that we must seize the opportunity now, and do so before it is too late.

11.41 p.m.

Mr. John Sutcliffe: I find myself agreeing, not with the hon. Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Lomas), but with my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr. More). I see no sense or logic in the Government affirming a commitment to the Economic Community, and disavowing anything more. I cannot see the Economic Community functioning properly until there is a political union, and I fail to see political union working.
Nowhere in the world has a federal type of Government been easy to create or sustain, and its benefits are not widely acknowledged or apparent. In no part of the world would there be greater difficulties in the way of such political union than in the Europe of the Economic Community. Indeed, the attempt to create it would be beset by more bitter conflict even than that which has marked every stage of the Community's development so far.
World problems will not wait for it, and I agree with the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) that they are on a far larger than Continental scale already. I believe that the logic of the Community will dictate that we dedicate British energy to European unity and if, in a decade or more, we succeed in it, we shall have achieved a place for ourselves in a bloc with no distinctive British voice.
Yet the Government's political case appears to rest on a political unity. It is implied in the argument that decisions will be taken which will have a vital effect on us, and in which we shall have no say. The Prime Minister has forecast that we shall have achieved a new greatness. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said that we shall speak with one voice, a louder voice, and the Chairman of the European Movement writes of the integration of nations into a larger unit of Continental proportions as the next stage in the evolution of the human race. The words of the White Paper sum it all up when it says:
A Europe united would have the means of recovering the position in the world which Europe divided has lost.
That is, then, what we are deciding after all on Thursday. But is it? That is not the issue at all, because we have been assured by the noble Lord the


Lord Chancellor that there will be 10 distinct national personalities with all the armoury of sovereign States, and my right hon. Friend who is now the Prime Minister has confirmed that that will be so, in these words:
…those members of the Community…who want a federal system…are prepared to forgo their federal desires so that Britain … can take part in political consultation and co-ordination with them."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th February, 1970; Vol. 796, c. 1221.]
He also said:
I have agreed with the French that there would be no ultimate sacrifice of sovereignty.
The White Paper sums all that up, too:
Membership would involve no question of any erosion of essential national sovereignty.
There is something here to suit everyone—but wait. If we are joining to maintain the panoply of sovereign States, why are we taking monetary union seriously, assuming that we are taking it seriously? National currency lies at the heart of national sovereignty, and a common currency, so far from being the father, is the child of political union. Let us suppose that our aim is not full political union, but rather a supreme authority exercising no authority over major States against their will. Forget the loud voice; forgo the new greatness. This is government by agency. According to Messrs. Pinder and Pryce in their book "Europe after De Gaulle", it is
…the worst of both worlds, a more remote and less democratic form of Government, without effective common action.
It must surely be something quite new that our leaders are advocating. If so, how is it that they have no thoughts to share with us and nothing coherent or practicable to offer before asking us to join in the construction of this great new thing, a thing which stops short of a federal State but is none the less a super Power? All that my right hon. and learned Friend had to say on this subject today was that he saw no virtue in gigantism: a European super-State was not how he saw the future.
The alternatives tend to be presented to us either in a homely phrase—"We shall play our part"—or in an emotive one—"We shall go it alone". But is it not true, as my hon. Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Mr. William Clark) said, that in the most vital of all national interests, security, the French prefer to

go it alone? Are we then to believe that Britain, with all her alliances, her major contribution to N.A.T.O. and her involvement internationally, is or is likely to be isolated?
If, as it clear beyond any doubt, we have to give up sovereignty and expect to do so increasingly in order to make the Economic Community work, it is high time that the country was told how much sovereignty and to what authority, if not a federal one, our sovereignty is to be given. The Government must surely have such important considerations in the forefront of their minds.
Professor Toynbee once said:
It is just because we are really attacking the principle of local sovereignty that we keep on protesting our loyalty to it so loudly, all the time denying with our lips what we are doing with our hands.
On such an issue can there be any justification for this confusion amounting to a public deception? We do not will a continental Power, but we do talk of a European Power matching other continental Powers, and in the same breath we disclaim for this Power any possibility of equal status by denying it a European nuclear rôle. We appear to advovate a "go it alone" policy for this new Europe, without so much as a thought for the colossal burden which this implies.
Mr. Leonard Beaton, past Director of the Institute of Strategic Studies, said not only,
Giants go it alone, often to disaster,
but also,
It is exceptionally difficult to see how any sustained defence of Western Europe could be maintained even if there was a central government able to organise the resources of the area. The problem is more difficult still with ten governments, ineffective institutions, no power to tax or conscript and no acknowledged centre of decisions over war and peace.
We do not want to pursue a policy which may give an impetus to United States disengagement when, in the future as in the past, Western Europe must be ultimately dependent for its security on America.
Before it is too late we should face up to the political consequences of what we are doing. For far too many hon. Members, Europe is Jacob's ladder. How timid to bicker about the rungs, they say. What lack of faith and vision to query the destination, they say. I have all


along been opposed not to Europe and not to an association with Europe, but to this brand of Europeanism. It is too rigid and institutional and it has revolutionary implications for this country.
I was told to wait for the terms, but successive Governments have been negotiating terms which did not touch the fundamental questions. We had to concede the Treaty, espouse for Britain objectives that have never been clarified and restrict the discussion merely to ways and means of adapting to full membership after adhering to the Treaty of Rome.
As for what follows, I was told, "Take it step by step". But as I understand it, that is precluded in any meaningful sense by the very nature of the commitment we are asked to make on Thursday. We are asked by our votes to bring about a drastic alteration in Britain's place in the world order. By our votes, we are to set in motion a changed pattern in world trade and switch from existing major commercial relationships which we have failed to foster and sought to belittle through 12 years' concentration on getting into Europe. Our votes are to decide whether we reverse what has always been the central objective of British policy—to preserve the nation's independence and institutions.
How can it be said that we shall be committed to nothing but a glorified customs union? Have we told the Six to forget their political aspirations in Europe? Of course not. On the contrary, there is an assumption implied which I believe to be arrogant and unwarranted—that we shall give the Europe of the Ten leadership, bequeath it stability and hand on to it intact the ties, peculiarly orientated towards this country, of the Commonwealth; in other words, re-make this semi-continent in our own image. In this way, at a stroke, the whole history and nature of European development is written off and the realities of the Treaty of Rome, the common agricultural policy first and foremost, brushed aside.
All experience shows that human organisations once wrongly started are exceedingly difficult to put right, and few will deny that the Community is wrongly started for Britain.
I have tried to explain briefly why I cannot join in the great adventure that

is proposed. The case is nebulous. I can understand that it appeals to the starry-eyed. At one and the same time it affirms central decision-making and denies loss of sovereignty. It is at bottom based on contradiction, and in my view the majority in this country, and in my constituency, recognise this.
I insisted that both sides in the great debate should be heard in West Middlesbrough, and I consulted my electorate just two weeks ago in an independent and utterly impartial referendum. About half of my electorate voted, and 69 per cent. of those voted against entry into Europe. That was as effective a consultation as that in any constituency in Britain. The dilemma for the full hearted majority against entry is that they want association with Europe, but not this one, not this indissoluble marriage the consequences of which go far further than the Government want to reveal to them.

Mr. Marcus Worsley: My hon. Friend has said that his constituents wished an association with Europe. Did they say what sort of association?

Mr. Sutcliffe: My hon. Friend has misunderstood me. They want to be as closely associated with Europe as is possible short of this kind of indissoluble marriage.
If not for the majority inside this House, certainly for the majority outside it
There lives more faith in honest doubt, Believe me, than in half the creeds.

11.56 p.m.

Mr. J. T. Price: At this time of the night I would never dream of offering to the House an academic lecture. I should hesitate to do so at any time of the day or night.
There is a duty upon all of us in this great debate, much publicised, anticipated and derided, to speak from the heart about what we believe and not to quote what others believe about it. I come at once to the crux of the matter. I have always believed that in essence this is a debate about a fundamental constitutional change of the policy of this nation which will affect not only our present generations but generations unborn. Therefore, I address myself to that central question.
Those diligent scribblers who report our proceedings in the columns of many


newspapers have been disappointed with us during the recent few days of this debate. They have said that they have been short of copy and that we are dull and boring—boring to the extent that so many hon. Members, being so overborne by the serious task confronting them, instead of saying what they really believe, have been ploughing through the records quoting this and that speech and masses of statistics which cannot be sustained. I am not surprised, therefore, that the Press have tried to create a diversion by drawing the distinction between the question of a free vote for Government supporters and what is called a whipped vote for the right hon. and hon. Gentlemen who occupy these benches and are my political friends.
Not unlike the other side of the House, we have our divisions on this matter, and they are apparent to everyone who listens to these debates. Whilst there may be a diverting and amusing discussion about the belated decision of the Prime Minister to announce that he is allowing a free vote to his supporters, this avoids entirely the fact that although the Government have an overall majority in the House of about 26, when the chips on both sides are counted, there is no doubt a majority of about 26 to 30 Members available mathematically. There are, however, over 100 Government supporters who have been expressly excluded from this count by a statement made by the Leader of the House in the debate on Friday last. It is clear, therefore, taking away what is called the payroll vote on the Government side of not only Ministers but all hon. Members opposite who are recent recruits to this House but hope to become Ministers one day, that they have had their arms twisted so strongly that the question of a free vote is just a joke for many of my hon. Friends. [Interruption.] I speak for myself.

Mr. Mandan: Mr. Mandanrose—

Mr. Price: I shall give way to no one. It is now 12 o'clock. I have waited all day to say this. I intend to say it without interruption. I mean no discourtesy to the hon. Gentleman. I am trying to be brief.
I have had over 20 years' experience in the House. On occasions like this, when deep principles are at stake, it behoves every hon. Member who holds

views on the subject under discussion to speak his mind and not to be coerced by anybody left, right or centre. I am a member of no group, either pro-Common Market or anti-Common Market. I have kept my doorstep clean. I have never stood on my head. I have never changed my tune on this issue. My attitude springs from a conviction that entry would be the wrong course for my country.
If the Press complain that we have been dull today, it will be because they have not been listening. Today's debate has been lively in creation of its aspects. I have listened to many of the speeches. I have heard it said that the ex-Leader of the Liberal Party was walking a tight rope and responding to pressures from the Shetlands and Orkneys about the state of the British fishing industry and threats to its future from these proposals. The right hon. Gentleman said that he had changed his mind a little and was beginning to wobble.
Many wobble under force majeure. I do not want to come anybody. I have no objection to any of my hon. Friends, although I doubt their judgment, having free expression of opinion in the House. In my 20 years' experience in the House, I have been more than once in the dilemma, when I have been supporting a Government which I have been elected to support, of going into the Lobby to support them when I have thought that they were wrong and voting with my feet and not with my head and conscience. I have done that for the sake of wider and longer-term aims which I regarded as valuable.
I was therefore a little shocked to hear the sentimental outburst of a very dear old friend of mine, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell). I am sorry that he is not now here. He has gone home. He has got his speech off his chest. He made a very good speech which was loudly cheered from the Tory Benches. My right hon. Friend put the point as strongly as he could about his conscience.
I do not regard this as a matter of conscience. It is a matter of judgment on a very confused picture. Inadequate information has been given to the House by means of all kinds of devious sophistries which have been put forward by the advocates of the Common Market.
In this debate the honour of Members of Parliament is at stake. If the House ceases to be representative of those who sent us here, it will be in dire peril of losing all credibility as a guardian of democracy.
As was said in other words by my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay), no party has any mandate to sign the Treaty of Rome. It has been hedged about by all kinds of sophisticated arguments about what was meant by our seeking terms of admission. No party, neither mine nor the Conservative Party, has put in terms to the British electorate that if it was elected to power it would seek to accede to the Treaty of Rome.
We hear this academic argument about whether we have a free vote or a whipped vote, but the vote that I am concerned about is not the vote of 630 Members of this House who are expected to accept responsibility for this affair. I am concerned about the 26 million people outside this House who have no vote at all on the issue.

Mrs. Jill Knight: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Price: As a matter of chivalry, perhaps.

Mrs. Knight: I am very grateful. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many Members of Parliament, including myself, put it clearly in our election addresses that we were in favour of entry, and we were voted into Parliament on the clear understanding that that would be our policy?

Mr. Price: I am obliged to the hon. Lady. I know she does her best to try to defend her party wicket. I am not speaking on party line at all. Any hon. Member can search the record of what has been said in all previous debates on the Common Market, and nobody will find a statement by myself which has been pro-Common Market. I have held my ground against all comers on this issue because I believe that it is a matter of abiding principle. I am not basing my opposition to joining the Common Market on the terms, though they are bad. I base it on very fundamental considerations some of which were eloquently put by

the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, West (Mr. Sutcliffe).
I base my opposition on my regard for this great nation with all its traditions—and do not let anybody make the fashionable jibe at me that I am a "little Englander". I have a fair record of international activity. But so far as the new concept of Europe is concerned, which was a dream of the Napoleonic wars, I regard that as an exclusive club that avoids some of the most terrible problems facing the world today that cannot be solved in terms of any kind of exclusive freemasonry limited to the rich nations of Western Europe. This was spelt out very eloquently by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) in a very brilliant speech of short duration.
There are some of my hon. Friends who are naive enough to suppose that by giving their votes on Thursday night in favour of entry to the Common Market they will somehow, by some indirect metaphysical process that I do not understand, give their support to the forward march of international Socialism. What a nonsense! This proposition which is before the House on the terms which have been negotiated is not one to give a lead to the Socialists of Europe. It is an economic proposition supported by political sanctions. It is a movement to consolidate the multi-national, the conglomerate company, the international body which wants freedom for the free export of capital where it is most likely to produce profits and the free movement of labour to support that process in the same direction.
I refuse to accept the proposition that if we become members of the European Economic Community, and fully paid-up members—in fact, over-paid-up members, paying a disproportionate share of the cost of entry and of running the joint—we shall in some way advance the cause of international Socialism. I deny it. We shall make it even more convenient than it is now for the take-over bidders, the clever financiers and the clever manipulators of the levers of economic power to deploy their capital where it is most likely to produce the highest profit.
Without wishing to be unfair to anyone, as I see the proposition it will be more favourable, once there is complete freedom of movement of capital and


labour, for many of the great corporations to employ their capital near the centre of the Market and not in this little island—[Interruption.] Hon. Gentlemen opposite may find this point of view difficult to accept—perhaps I am putting it a little clumsily at this late hour—but I say that the free movement of capital and labour spells no good for this country.
I am no nationalist; I am a Lancashire man sent here to represent my constituents. For three years I was a representative at the Council of Europe and the Western European Union and had many diverting experiences discussing these recondite matters with my opposite numbers in Europe. Many of them were excellent people, highly intelligent, sophisticated and nice to know, and being the perfect gentleman, I listened to them with the greatest grace and good humour, but these discusions and cross-fertilisation exercises never convinced me that the Continental point of view had anything but a political motive.
I discussed the subject with Italians, with Frenchmen, with Germans, and with nationals of the Benelux countries—all excellent people. I am reminded of the old Gilbert and Sullivan song I used to be able to sing when I was young:
For he might have been a Roosian,
A French, or Turk, or Proosian,
Or perhaps I-ta-li-an!
But in spite of all temptations,
To belong to other nations,
He remains an Englishman.
It is unfashionable in this House to proclaim British interests, but there was an occasion during the dark days of the last war when a great spokesman from this side completely exploded the Chamberlain myth by speaking up for Britain, and that is what some of us are doing now. We are speaking up for Britain because we feel that our sovereignty is gravely challenged in political terms. We also have in mind the motive lying behind the Continental pressures on us, chiefly from the Italians, perhaps a little less seriously, but still very strong, from the Dutch, who do not like the Germans, and from the Belgians, who are not very happy about the French, who were sitting tight and ignoring the Council of Europe.
When I was at the Council of Europe the French did not like any of us, but now they have a new President and they have had to change their minds because

the French farmers are holding mass rallies and invoking the sanctions of the Council of Europe—marching on Paris, as the Belgian farmers are on Brussels, and in one case even taking their bullocks into the conference chamber, with a resultant mess on the floor. [Interruption.] I hope that the House is not bored with me. I am dead serious, but I believe that if one has a serious task to do it is better to do it cheerfuly. One good idea at least that the Nazis invented was "Strength through Joy", and with it they got a lot of youngsters into the net. That is why I believe in that method of putting a case. Tonight I am appealing to a jury when I speak to hon. Gentlemen opposite because they have a free vote and, according to the Prime Minister, are open to be persuaded by superior logic.
I mentioned the agricultural fantasy of Europe, in which we would pay fantastic sums to prop up inefficient, incompetent and corrupt French agriculture. An hon. Gentleman, manfully supporting the Government, spoke of the German contribution. Although we shall be new members, we are not foundation members. But the amount laid down to be paid to the "kitty" in Brussels for French agriculture is far in excess of what even the Germans are called upon to pay as founder members. I cannot see the logic of that.
Neither can I agree with the encomiums put forward on behalf of the "skilful and brilliant negotiator", the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. He has as much organic connection with Lancaster as I have with Shoeburyness. I am glad to see the right hon. and learned Gentleman has taken his place because I do not want to be unfair to him. He holds a very honourable office. It is one of those convenient little offices to put someone in when they have a dirty job to do. This is what he has been put there to do. I know it would be unfair to describe him as a hatchet man but he has almost put himself in that category because he has not been able to substantiate his pious hopes for the future with any factual data that cause me as a rational British Member of Parliament to be convinced by his arguments.
I have been struggling in this House over the last 20 years with the problems of Lancashire. Its problem is that of


declining industry. It was the place where the Industrial Revolution started, and because we were the first we have inherited all the dross and wreckage of the worn-out system that was the foundation stone of British capitalism. I have fought this with Governments of both parties, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North, will confirm that when he was President of the Board of Trade he had some very rough meetings with me when I complained about the state of the textile industry, which has been so reduced in size that it is only one-fifth of the size it was at the end of the war. Then the Tory Government mounted a propaganda campaign saying that England's thread hangs on Lancashire's thread. This was aimed at getting people back into the mills, getting the looms going again so that we could begin exporting manufactured goods and earning our living in the markets of the world.

Mr. Normanton: As the hon. Member is talking of the Lancashire textile industry perhaps he would recall the considered judgment of the industry as voiced not only by the capitalist employers but by responsible trade unions on the issue of whether it would be to Britain's advantage to join the Common Market. If he recalls it, he will remember that on every occasion when the textile industry of Lancashire has been consulted by the Government and the C.B.I. it has consistently stated that the balance of advantage to the industry lies in Britain joining Europe.

Mr. Price: I do not want to be deflected unduly from my main argument but I give the hon. Gentleman an honest answer as I see it. I have had a lot to do with this question. Both sides of the industry have held diverse views on the matter. There has been no unanimous view except on one thing—that the industrial relationships in the Lancashire textile industry have been better than those of almost any other British industry, but, that despite those good relationships and the traditional skills, plus the efforts of the better employers to re-equip their factories with modern machinery, there has been an almost spectacular decline because of the unfair competition which has been besetting us from every corner of the globe. It is a fact of history that we deplore. The present situation is deplorable.
I remember making a speech at the Council of Europe at Strasbourg, as I am making one now—off the cuff, impulsive, not very academic, but saying what I believe in. [Interruption.] If hon. Members continue to interrupt—

Mr. Speaker: Order. Provocative interruptions make a speech longer. The hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. J. T. Price) has been speaking for 25 minutes. I hope hon. Members will not provoke him into speaking much longer.

Mr. Price: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. I want to bring my remarks to a close shortly.
The Council of Europe represents the Six plus ourselves plus Israel and one or two other odds and ends like Turkey. I hope the Turkish Ambassador does not write me a dirty letter tomorrow, because I have great regard for the Turks. The Council of Europe was always passing pious resolutions, heavily documented, with a fantastic bureaucratic machine behind it. It drove me quite mad to see the amount of paper which piled up there. If it is to pile up like that in the Community, God help us! It will probably be worse there.
The British market for British textiles had been eroded at that time to the extent of 50 per cent. because of imports from low-wage countries, but only 4 per cent. or so of such imports were being taken by the Six and I do not think that they take much more today. The Council of Europe has passed hundreds of resolutions talking about giving aid to developing countries and assisting them to become economically viable. But they are all just pious resolutions. There is nothing in the performance of the Council of Europe and the Six to convince me that they have anything more than a pious wish to assist the developing nations, although they may be a little generous with the Colombo Plan and external aid, which does not mean very much.
What most people in this country are concerned about are the prospects of employment under the new set-up. I do not think those prospects are over-bright.
I want to conclude my rambling remarks, such as they are, with a local reference. I have tried not to make too many local references on such an occasion. Hon. Members opposite have made


muted references to the policy of the N.F.U. I represent 800 farmers, surprising as that may seem. The N.F.U. has had its arm twisted so much and has been told so often that farmers will get better prices for their fat stock and all sorts of other products by our going into this protected little ring with a 7½ per cent. external tariff that it has more or less toed the line.
I have a letter, which, strangely enough, came into my possession today. It is from the National Farmers' Union Lancashire county branch, and I should like to read it to the House as my final contribution to this debate:
Dear Mr. Price,
The Common Market.
You are now facing the most crucial debate that Parliament has held in our lifetime. Many sincere arguments will be put forward for or against entry into the E.E.C. As spokesman for the horticultural industry in Lancashire I must take this opportunity of pointing out to you the great danger that threatens our livelihood. We have the second largest area under glass in Britain and are the largest lettuce and tomato producers in the country. In recent years the industry has modernised and increased production out of all recognition. This has been partly due to money injected into the industry by the Horticulture Improvement Scheme. This grant is still available, and therefore it would seem criminal to subject British horticulture to the E.E.C. without cast iron safeguards. At best it would be gross mismanagement of public money. At the worst it could see the total collapse of the industry and a loss to this country of nearly £300 million per year. Provision must now be made to guarantee adequate compensation if as a result of the abolition of tariffs the industry becomes no longer viable.
It is signed by the County Horticultural Chairman and carries the imprimatur of the National Farmers' Union. I thought it properly germane to this debate.
Although we have had our fun and games about whether there is a free vote or a Whip, when Thursday night comes and this debate comes to a close, I for one will need no Whip to tell me where my duty lies in the Lobby. Whatever may be the mechanics of this situation I shall need no one to tell me where my duty lies. In the interests of my country, in the interests of the people in Lancashire I represent, I shall be very determined to vote against this Motion on Thursday night.

12.28 a.m.

Sir John Rodgers: It is always a very great pleasure indeed to

follow the robust and sincere remarks of my hon. Friend—if I may call him that—the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. J. T. Price).
All of us in this debate, not only today but since it started, have shown we recognise that on Thursday, 28th October, whether we are in favour of the United Kingdom joining the enlarged European Community or whether we are opposed to that, the decision we take will have a momentous and historic effect on the future of this country, not for us only, or our chiluren, but for generations beyond.
Those of us who, like myself, have always been pro-Marketeers ought to make clear that we have never regarded—I have not, I make clear at the outset—membership of the enlarged Community as being a panacea or a magic carpet for solving immediately or in the long term all Britain's economic and social problems. I believe that adherence to the Treaty of Rome and joining the enlarged Community offers us an opportunity, a challenge, which we can take or reject, and that is what we are discussing tonight.
I am sorry the hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) is not in his place, because he quoted from recent market research from which he tried to draw a moral from the fact that between 80 per cent. and 90 per cent. of the people of this country believe that we are going into the Common Market, and he also told the House that the people were not in favour of our joining. The first of those statements is true, but there is a fact he omitted—that is, if he had the same piece of research that I have read myself. He omitted to say that between 50 per cent. and 60 per cent. of those people who were interviewed believed that it was in Britain's interest to go in, even though they themselves were not in favour of it.
Like the hon. Gentleman, I have in the last two or three months visited my own constituency many times and talked about the Common Market to my constituents, have heard their views, have answered their questions, given them my own views. I have seen specialist groups, chambers of commerce, business men, farmers. I should be less than honest if I did not say that this is an


issue which causes perturbation, and in which there is not unanimity—on either side of the question.
There is perturbation in many breasts about our going into the Common Market, and we should recognise this. Change is never pleasant. It is always much easier to continue on the cosy path which has been set. Whatever the complexion of the Government, they have the problem of the pace at which they can introduce innovations without the people feeling completely uprooted and losing all sense of their heritage. In the last few years we have undergone many changes which have upset the older generation, who, as with decimalisation, see entry to the Common Market as destroying what they believe to be the English way of life. We should be less than honest if we did not recognise this as one reason why people are not so much in favour as we hoped they would be.
The Government have yet to make it abundantly clear that they will take steps to protect the livelihood and wellbeing not only of old-age pensioners and the chronic sick but also of people living on fixed incomes whose standard of living is gradually being brought down by inflationary pressures. The Government still have a mammoth task to get this across to the people.
I nevertheless find it extremely difficult to sympathise with those who think we are rushing Britain into the Common Market. It is now 10 or 11 years since successive Tory and Socialist Governments have sought entrance to the Common Market. Even before this many people, certainly on this side of the House, tried to persuade the then Administration to join the talks which led to the Treaty of Rome. We have heard a lot about the changes of view of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench, but the one thing that my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy cannot be accused of is changing his mind. He, with a small group of us, in 1955 urged the then Government to join the talks that led to the Treaty of Rome. If they had listened to his wisdom then, as I hope we shall listen to it on Thursday, we should have been in by now, we should not have had to pay the large entrance fee now demanded and the common agricultural

policy would probably not have been the policy it is now.
We should learn from our past mistakes. We had the opportunity in 1955–57 to go in and help shape the destiny of Europe and ourselves. We rejected it and thought that we could sell to Europe the idea of a European Free Trade Area. In this we failed utterly. Europe wanted something more than just a customs union; it wanted something with an eventual political and defence content. So Europe rejected British overtures and went ahead and started the E.E.C., and we were left with a little brother called E.F.T.A. We talk about E.F.T.A. being a market of 90 million, but 55 million of those 90 million are the population of Britain. It was not a substitute and did not even turn out to be a bridge.
After we have been knocking on the door for the last 10 years and being twice refused entry, once under a Tory Government and once under a Labour Government, now the door has been opened to us. What do we do? Having knocked for 10 years, are we to fall flat on our faces at the invitation to come in? What a posture for a great nation to take after conducting serious negotiations for over a year. What a dilemma we shall leave the rest of Europe in as to the place of Britain in the world. It is nonsense, of course.
All three parties have agreed in principle that Britain should adhere to the Treaty of Rome and join the Economic Community. I know that the Leader of the Opposition rejects this opportunity and believes that if and when he is returned as head of a Government he can reopen negotiations and secure even better terms. If we reject this opportunity, I do not believe that it will recur for many years to come, and it may be lost for ever.
There are those who have asked in this debate why we cannot have different groupings. They think that we should stick to the little E.F.T.A. "rump" and possibly enlarge it by inviting the Americans or the Canadians to join it, and have another group built round our Commonwealth countries. None of those is a viable alternative. The said truth is that there is no alternative. Valuable though it is, the Commonwealth can never be a major political or economic force because of the divergent interests


of its members. There is little enthusiasm in the U.S.A. for the formation of a free trade area with us or any other nation in Europe. Above all, the E.F.T.A. nations are beginning to wish to join the Common Market rather than continue the E.F.T.A. trade pattern.
In this debate so far, no one has admitted that there is no alternative to going into the Common Market—other than going it alone; that is the only one. If we go it alone, we shall survive, of course. We have many gifts as a nation, and we shall not go under. But it is probable that our standard of living will go down. It may even go up slightly, but it will do so much slower than that of the other countries of Europe and possibly those of the rest of the world.
This small island has few natural resources and very little prospect of creating new wealth, new jobs, and maintaining full employment—

Mr. Stanley Orme: What a pessimist!

Sir J. Rodgers: Certainly the possibilities will be seriously jeopardised if we remain outside the Common Market.
The economic arguments in favour of joining have been stated clearly in many speeches from both sides. Few hon. Members have sought to challenge the fact that the present Common Market, as a result of pooling its economic resources, has achieved a far higher rate of growth and increased national product than we have accomplished. The E.E.C. now accounts for 15 per cent. of the world's annual gross product. When the other four applicant countries join, its share will go up to over 20 per cent. That compares with America's share of 40 per cent. and Russia's 10 per cent.
The existing Community already is the biggest trading entity in the world. Over the last 10 years its trade has grown half as fast again as that of the rest of the world. Our average industrial wage was higher than that of most countries in Western Europe 10 years ago. Today it is a good deal lower.
Why has the standard of living gone up so fast in the E.E.C. compared with this country? Why can the E.E.C. countries afford to provide higher wages, bigger pensions, better bonuses, longer holidays, and better social security provision? The reason is that the E.E.C. economy is a dynamic growth economy

with a growth rate far exceeding our own. The annual growth rate of productivity in manufacturing industry exceeds that of the United Kingdom.
Unless our industries can be reconstructed on a Continental scale rather than a purely small, national one, which will be possible if we accept the challenge of going into Europe, we shall continue to lag behind while other countries expand and give their people a richer, better-paid and far more satisfactory life. The British way of life would be one of gradual descent. If we are not careful, if we pursue the line which some hon. Members on both sides have mentioned, it will be one of genteel poverty with all the misery and the social frustration which that will produce.
I should like to support what was said by the hon. Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. William Rodgers). Both he and I were charged with the same responsibility at the Board of Trade in our time. I was in charge of co-ordinating the Government's policy for dealing with local unemployment and regional development. My experience was the same as his, and I agree with him that we cannot deal with and improve the situation of the development areas unless there is a rising economy essentially at the same time. If the economy is going downwards or is stagnant, as it is almost now, we cannot release enough energies to improve the situation and the lot of those who live in the depressed areas of Scotland, the North-West, the North-East, Wales, and the like.
For that reason, therefore, I believe that the Six have already demonstrated that, by pooling their resources, by showing that they can become a dynamic growth economy, and by inviting the four nations to join them, they are not inward-looking. I have shared fears in the past lest they might become an inward-looking Community, but they have been far from that. Apart from inviting us in, they have also shown that they wish to invite all the other E.F.T.A. partners and other European nations to join them in some form or other—associated status, and the like.
The Six have done much to help the countries in Africa, in the Caribbean and elsewhere. Indeed, the Six were the first off the mark in giving preference on most industrial goods to developing


nations, despite what was said by the hon. Member for Westhoughton, and they were strong enough to do this unilaterally, ignoring American hopes of holding up a global agreement until the Community's "revenue preferences" were dropped. We should think about that.
I hope that this House, when it comes to vote on Thursday, will approve by a large majority our application to join the E.E.C. Whatever the Leader of the Opposition may say now, it is a fact that six of his then Cabinet Ministers, including two ex-Foreign Secretaries, a Chancellor of the Exchequer, a Paymaster-General and a Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster—the right hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. George Thomson)—have definitely expressed the view that the terms which my right hon. and learned Friend has obtained are acceptable and as good as, if no better than, any which the party opposite would have accepted or obtained.
Once we are inside the Community we can help to shape events of which, outside, we should be but passive spectators. Important events perhaps dealing with the prospects of either peace or war could be decided with us outside in the anteroom not taking part in those deliberations.
I realise that there are genuine fears, even among those who can see the economic arguments for our adherence, about the political or the sovereignty aspects. But, important though the economic issues are, I believe that in the long run the political issues are of greater significance.
The preamble of the Treaty of Rome contains some words about the political future of Europe, but they are no guide whatsoever to the actual political structure which might emerge. Some would appear to advocate a federal Europe, others a confederate Europe. I would like to ban both words from any discussion in the next 10 or 15 years on the future of the Common Market. All these arguments are premature and speculative.
I hope that we shall not try to bring about an organisation like a United States of Europe parallel to that of the United States of America. I want to see an organisation of sovereign States co-operating on those matters which it is

agreed would be to their mutual interest. Who knows, one day we might arrive at a European foreign policy, a European monetary policy or even a European economic policy; but that day is a long way off. At all events, I hope that we shall not try to bring about a confederate United States of Europe, with a federal capital somewhere in Europe, or even in these islands.
Each country in Europe has made a diverse and unique contribution to European civilisation and life, culturally, scientifically and industrially. Europe, which is still the greatest continent in the world, has done this as a collection of sovereign States, and it is still making its contribution as a group of sovereign States. Unfortunately, the very virtues of the European nations—enterprise, aggressiveness, imagination and skills—have twice led to wars in recent times. We can make the European Economic Community a really European body. I agree with some hon. Members opposite who have said that it is hardly a European body today when it embraces only six of the sovereign European nations. But let us get four more in, and that will be 10. It need not end there; we can expand the Community until it brings in all Western Europe and, let us hope, one day the countries of Eastern Europe as well. It has been said that the Germans are still as German and the Dutch are still as Dutch as ever. The French are just as French, and I am sure that if we go in we shall remain as British as we are now.
What has depressed me in this debate is that the anti-Marketeers have shown such pessimism about our ability to co-operate to our mutual advantage with the rest of the Community. They talk as if the Community were a static organisation rather than an organically dynamic and ever-changing one, in which each country has the ability to safeguard what it regards as its vital interests. I believe that when the British people consider this matter they will increasingly support the desire and decision of the Government that Britain should play her part in fashioning a new Europe for the sake of the peace of the world and the prosperity of our own people.

12.48 a.m.

Mr. Arthur Blenkinsop: Though we must all be weary—and you, Mr. Speaker, as weary as, if not more


weary than, the rest of us—and even at this late hour, it is vital for those who are taking a course and, at the end of the debate, will probably take a decision against the wishes of many of our constituents and as expressed by our own party, to explain why we do so.
I make no apology for making a personal speech, relating to the position of my constituents. I am aware of the feelings of many of my party in my constituency of South Shields, and of the feelings perhaps even of the majority—it would be hard to judge—of all the people living in that constituency. Above all, they are desperately concerned because they fear that entry under this Government will accentuate the very harsh conditions with which they have had to live during the last six years—six years of very heavy unemployment and major industrial change. It is clear that they have a deep distrust of this Government. The great majority of them believe, and I share their view absolutely, that the Government have made their condition worse, as they palpably have.
The figure for male unemployment in my area is about 15 per cent. It was bad enough before, when it was 10 per cent. for years. It is, therefore, understandable that people in my constituency deeply fear the prospect of an even worse situation, particularly because of the Government's record. It is not so much an argument about the Common Market itself as an argument about people's feelings towards the Government's record as it affects them, and I am sorry that there is to be no opportunity to vote on the Amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton), because it undoubtedly expresses the feelings of so many people in my constituency.
We need major changes in Government policies and personnel. In fact, we need a new set of personnel altogether in Government; that is to say, a new Government. I do not say that lightly, because I believe that the effectiveness of the decision to join the Common Market depends a great deal upon the policies that are being pursued now. I believe that there are real dangers in entering the Common Market in the present state of near economic stagnation, which the hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Sir J. Rodgers) suggested we were in. There

are real dangers in entering the Common Market in this atmosphere. Unless there is a complete change of Government policy and especially industrial policy to take advantage of the opportunities which I believe the Common Market will present, there will be grave dangers in our joining it.
Those are the reasons why many of us, although we feel that we shall take a decision to vote in favour of entry, will be demanding much more information than we have so far had about the policies which the Government intend to carry out within the Community. We must have assurances about the kind of leadership which this country will give in the Common Market if we are to secure the advantages of the common policies in which many of us believe.
Over the last eight years I have become convinced of the necessity of joining the Common Market. In earlier times many of us had other hopes, but looking back now we realise that we were wrong to believe that the Commonwealth could develop as a real alternative to economic and political development in the Community.
I have never believed many of the claims made by either the pro- or the anti-Marketeers. There has been wild exaggeration on both sides. I have never believed that a decision should be made on the narrow balance of advantage, as I believe it to be, on the economic side. Strong and real economic arguments are put forward against entry as well, and I do not think that we would be right to delude ourselves—or anyone else—into believing that there is any easy solution to our problems by entering the Community.
I believe that we must accept the realities of our geographical position, and of our economic position, too. Above all, I believe that there are real political issues which lead me to decide that I want to be within Europe, initially within Western Europe but, to widen that out to the whole of Europe as soon as that becomes practicable and possible. Now I find in my own party, both in my constituency and nationally, that some of those who are opposed to entry are opposed fundamentally, because they are perfectly sincerely against the concept of the Common Market and would take that view even if we were in Government. These


fundamentalists have made the running of the debate today. I respect them, but theirs are not the views of the leadership of my party, as I understand them.
I am assured that we are not as a party opposed to entry in principle, but that we are opposed to the present terms. There has been very little argument explaining the discrepancies in the terms, although there has been some very strong argument against the fundamental thesis of joining. I should like to ask those hon. Friends of mine who believe in the necessity of joining but fear the dangers of joining today to consider the very real possibility that unless we can keep the door effectively open now by accepting this Motion it is very doubtful that that offer will remain open for us at some future date—

Mr. Orme: It is a Tory Motion, remember.

Mr. Blenkinsop: I am well aware of the origin of the Motion, but this is the dilemma we have to face. Those of us who fundamentally believe in the political importance of entry have to face this. We are bound to stick by the views that we have held for some considerable time.
My own political concern for entry is to fight against the tendency that I see in both parties towards a growing isolationism. This is an overwhelming danger: we cover it with all sorts of phrases, but it is there. I want to fight against it for certain clearly defined objectives which I believe we can help to gain within Europe—certainly not automatically, but we need to state these objectives and principles now.
I want this Government, as well as my party, to declare that we want to be in Europe in order to fight more effectively for the under-privileged abroad. My right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice), who held responsibility in this field, made a powerful speech, but I think he was wrong in his view that entry would endanger the cause of the developing countries. Our entry can improve the position, but only if we fight to improve it. We must not, if we enter, stand on the sidelines. The fight is not ended for any of these objectives, but I firmly believe that our entry will give us an

opportunity to conduct an even more realistic struggle for the objectives on which we are particularly keen.
Entry into the E.E.C. could also give us new hopes and contacts to help in building links with Eastern Europe. I do not say that idly. Like many of my hon. Friends, I have had opportunities to discuss with people in Eastern European countries, and particularly Poland, some of these issues, and many of them do not take a rigid view towards the Common Market. They accept it as a reality and believe that our entry could make it a more helpful unit for joint action rather than the reverse. Again, this is a possibility through entry which will require our active participation. It depends on us. None of these things will be achieved automatically.
Just as entry could enable us to help the under-privileged in the wider world, so it could assist the under-privileged in our own communities, whether we are talking about regional development or the under-privileged in the sense of the handicapped, the elderly and similar groups in our midst.
I have no objection to joining with our colleagues in the trade unions of Western Europe to achieve these ends. We have friends in Europe, in the trade union movement and social democrat parties. Why should we discount the contribution they can make? When appeals are made to us to join with what I regard as my colleagues and friends in Western Europe I am told by some of my hon. Friends, "They just want us in to help them." Why not? That is a very good reason for joining. Why should we not join with them in fighting to achieve our common objectives?
I was proud in earlier years—they seem a long way in the past—to help in developing our National Health Service, which they do not have in Western Europe. We are in no danger of losing the N.H.S. by joining them. Indeed, we can help them establish such services in their countries, for they are rightly envious of ours. However, in other spheres of social welfare they have caught up and gone beyond us, and so we must not be smug and self-satisfied today.
I do not see the Common Market as a narrow, closed Community. My hon. Friends cannot have it both ways, sometimes attacking the Community because,


they say, it is a protective device, and then arguing that the barrier is not big enough to be of any value. One cannot have it both ways. The Common Market has shown a very great deal of development and has become more outward looking, more than at one time I feared that it would. Its record is as good as ours. In some respects it is better; certainly in some respects it is worse. But we want to be in this body and working with it.
I hope that when we join the Common Market we set as one of our targets a greater democratic control. We want to see a greater reality in the parliamentary institution of the Common Market and to think out with it the ways of doing its work. The member countries want this also. They invite us in partly with that object. We should help establish new democratic forms, not only within the Community organisation but also in new forms of industrial democracy.
Why should we be afraid of joining with some of our colleagues in Western Europe in trying to widen the whole range of democracy? When speaking of democracy, how can we hope to have any effective control of the multi-national company unless we are in a community wider than Britain? Surely it is absurd to imagine that we can ever begin to have any voice in the control of the multinational company from within the limits of our country.
I want to see a joint campaign, which we can achieve, for a new quality of life. The whole issue of the environment within which we live will become more and more important as years pass. But it will be meaningless in the narrow confines of Britain alone. It must be seen within the wider confines of Western Europe.
With our knowledge of our past record and of what we wanted to achieve—we must be the first to admit what we did not achieve under a Labour Government—why was it that there was so much that we wished to carry through but that we failed to carry through? The economic disabilities that held us back suggest that we will not be any better able to achieve those objectives—full employment, concern for the elderly and the social priorities we would wish at home or abroad—unless we can escape the restrictions imposed upon us by the kind of isolation in which we found ourselves

when we were in office during the last few years. Our dependence in some respects on the United States, and our financial dependence, are things which we can escape from in the future not by trying to build some kind of fortress Britain on her own, in exclusion from the rest, but in association and with the more rapid growth of Western Europe.
These are the possibilities. So far from regarding this as a call of despair, it is quite the reverse. This is what we need to do if we have faith in ourselves. Half the anxiety about joining the Common Market is the anxiety of despair. It is fear; lack of confidence in our abilities and achievements. I want to go in to join those who I believe have common objectives with us. I do not find it necessary to sneer at those in Western Europe who are fighting for objectives that I, too, hold dear. It is my Socialist objective to get the priorities that I believe in worked for jointly with my friends throughout Western Europe.
This is a beginning. If we turn down this beginning, I do not believe that many people will have any confidence in us. This is the strongest feeling that I have about the necessity for our joining. It is that I believe that if we reject this offer, which means rejecting the Motion, it will be construed by our friends in Europe as meaning that we are turning our backs on them as well as on everybody else in Western Europe for the sake of isolationism. I cannot believe that any Socialist would stand for that.

1.11 a.m.

Mr. Elystan Morgan: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Although I regard it as a great privilege to be called, if you have called me per incuriam and had intended to call an hon. Member opposite, I will give way.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): I am trying as far as I can to balance the debate evenly between those for and those against the Motion. As far as I know, there are at present no speakers on the Government side who wish to speak against the Motion. Therefore, I have called two hon. Gentlemen from one side so as not to get too many speeches on one side of the question.

Mr. Morgan: I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and welcome this


opportunity of taking part in this historic debate. There has been nothing like it before in the history of Britain. It must by almost any consideration be regarded as the last of its kind. Parliament is about to decide on its own a matter affecting the lives and the future of the British people.
A time will come soon when, whatever decision is made by Parliament in a number of spheres, it will be necessary for that decision to be ratified by a Council of Ministers or by a European Commission or by the European Parliament. At this moment this debate has a real meaning for those of us who have the privilege of being Members of the House. We are able to decide this issue knowing that our own decision is unaffected by the will or the decision of any body outside.
Many people in the country regard this debate as being essentially about negotiations. They fondly imagine that British plenipotentiaries sat down at a table with European representatives and that there was in that situation a fruitful fluidity of possibilities. This was certainly not so. Ninety-nine per cent. of the whole scope of the situation was outside the ambit of negotiations. This part of the situation had already been ossified by the clauses of the Treaty of Rome.
Whether we regard the terms as good or bad—I have my own opinion about them—clearly it was not within the province of negotiations to change that situation save to a very marginal degree. The contract had already been drawn up. Whether we consider the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster as being shrewd or naive, successful or unsuccessful, competent or incompetent, it was clear that his own rôle in the matter was not one that would fundamentally change the essential character of the situation. What he was doing was to fill in a few blanks in a chapter which had already been fully negotiated.
There are many enthusiastic Europeans who will say that this is a very narrow legalistic and pettifogging attitude towards the Treaty of Rome, and they will say that it is wholly wrong to read this syllable by syllable, line by line and clause by clause, that one should try to assimilate the spirit of adventure and the purpose of the whole document and

never try to ascribe to words their ordinary grammatical meaning, that one should have the freedom which was demanded by the character in "Alice in Wonderland" that words should mean what he wished them to mean in any particular context.
The trouble with such an interpretation is this. The moment one says to one of these Europeans "If that is so, quite clearly there is no fundamental objection at all to regard major parts of the treaty as being negotiable" they say "No, this is like the laws of the Medes and Persians. This is immutable. Faith can move mountains but it shall not change a syllable of the treaty of 1957." The treaty is the centre, the heart and kernel of the situation, and I must put it as my own opinion that that treaty is for us a tyrannical and reactionary concept. I say "for us", but I do not feel that we have any right to be so arrogant as to judge the right of six European nations to form themselves into a condominion as those countries did 14 years ago. It was a matter for them, and no doubt it has brought very substantial benefits to their lives. That association was purpose-built to serve particular needs and to carry out a specific purpose.
It has been put to us by a number of very sincere hon. Members on both sides of the House that to be a European one must subscribe to the rationale of the Treaty of Rome. I utterly refute that. I have always believed that it is vitally necessary that there shall be much more European influence on our lives, something to bring a breath of fresh air into our insularity. Gandhi said many years ago that he wanted the breezes of influence to waft into his national home, but, on the other hand, he did not want to get blown out of his house by a tornado. That is the balance that we are seeking in this debate.
The case, in short, is that the structure and the whole mentality of the E.E.C. is as inappropriate for us as it was appropriate for those from countries in whose interests it was founded in the first place. As has been said by many Members who have taken part in the debate, the onus of proof can only lie, and lie heavily upon those who assert that it is necessary for Britain to enter the E.E.C. That burden of proof is very much heavier upon them in relation to us than it was in


relation to those who were protagonists of entry in the respective countries of the Six prior to 1957. They were the original signatories of that treaty. They were there bargaining in a fluid situation. They were not on a "take it or leave it" basis in relation to an immutable organisation.
The situation is very different for us; either we accept it practically in toto or we are unable to enter at all. One may think that a very heavy burden of proof for those I have mentioned to discharge. It is my assertion that they have not yet begun to discharge that heavy burden. Indeed, I do not think that any hon. Member can claim to have been seduced by the intellectual excellence of the arguments in the White Paper.
The main argument, the one central theme of the White Paper, is that because there has been substantial growth in the countries of the Six for 13 years two things will follow: first, that the growth will continue in the future for the whole association, and second, that that growth will reflect itself in a higher growth for Britain if Britain is a member than if she is not a member of the E.E.C.
There is not the slightest shred of proof nor any direct sequence of logic that leads to either of those conclusions. The fact that the growth has been experienced in the past is no indication at all that the same growth will continue in the future, especially if one considers that the rate of that growth has tapered off very considerably for the last five years. Ministers have not seen fit to tell the House exactly what fluctuations there have been in relation to that growth, for example, over the last three years; how, taking the figures for the last three years, the average annual rate of growth in Europe compares with our own situation.
The figures that we get all the time are the average figures for the whole period, or for the last 10 years, not for the last three years. If a company were placing a prospectus before the public, it would be bound by law, unless the directors wanted to face very severe penalties, to show quite clearly what the current position was, or what the position was in the last three years—

The Minister for Trade (Mr. Michael Noble): I am listening to the hon. Gentleman with very great seriousness because he is, clearly, talking very seriously to the House, but if everything he says is

true, can he tell the House how it was that he was a member of a Government—he is talking of three or four years ago—that had all the information that was available to the Government of the day, and remained a member of that Government, with the feelings that he is now expressing. I find it quite unbelievable to listen to it.

Mr. Morgan: I deliberately sought not to place this argument on the basis of party politics—

Mr. Noble: Nor am I doing so.

Mr. Morgan: I was not a member of the Government which negotiated in 1966 and 1967. I became a member of that Government, and was proud to be a member of it, from 6th April, 1968—

Mr. Noble: All the time.

Mr. Morgan: It is true that an application was subsequently made, in 1970, and if the matter had been brought to an issue, to a vote in the House, I would have had one course open to me, and one course only, and that would have been to resign, and I ask the House to accept that that is the course I would have taken.
But I am not seeking to make this a question of indictment of one party or of defence of the other. I regard the White Paper not just as the pleading of the Government but the pleading of the pro-Europeans in general, and what they have failed to do, perhaps quite honestly, is to pay sufficient attention to these deep fundamental factors which properly and inevitably distinguish the situation of Great Britain from the situation of these other countries that are constituent members of the E.E.C. For example, they have failed to meet the fact that Britain sends about 20 per cent. of her exports to the countries of the E.E.C. and 80 per cent. of her exports to other countries and by entering the E.E.C. she will be imperilling 80 per cent. of her present exports in an attempt to add an indeterminate amount to augment the 20 per cent. which now goes to the countries of the Common Market. That is a situation of, no doubt, possible gain, but, on the other hand, of very probable peril.
Again, they have failed to attach sufficient significance to the fact that the British economy for 130 years has been founded upon the policy of purchasing our food in the cheapest and most efficient


market and that changing that situation and tying us to buying our food only in the most inefficient and highest cost market will bring about a complete metamorphosis of the situation.
I could list dozens of other examples of distinguishing features which the pro-Europeans have failed properly to bring into account in this issue. I do not believe any White Paper published by either Government has really been able to calculate within even the broadest terms the harm that this factor of purchasing dear food can bring to our economy. Whatever similarities there are between Britain and the countries of the present Six, they are few and superficial, but the differences are deep and fundamental.
Not only do I believe that the argument that has been put forward in favour of the Market is insubstantial but I believe that the way it has been put forward is thoroughly false. Many hon. Members have realised the falsity that appears on page 10 of the shortened version of the White Paper. There are diagrams representing the rate of growth of exports in the years 1958–70 between the Six and from Britain to the Six. The multiplier in relation to growth of trade between the Six is 531 per cent. That is represented by two trees. The second tree, instead of being 5·3 times the size of the first, is 25 times the size of the first.
In other words, that is at best misrepresentation and at worst nothing but fraudulent. If any person were to seek to sell goods to the public upon the basis of such a representation I have not the slightest doubt that he would be rightly prosecuted under the provisions of the Trade Descriptions Act. It would have to be a deliberate decision on the part of the Attorney-General for some reason best known to himself not to proceed with such a prosecution.
A call has been made by Ministers for a great debate. There may be millions of naive and innocent people in Britain who believe that the great debate has been taking place over the last few months. They may be so innocent as to believe there is some parity between the two sides in the debate and the opportunities that have been afforded to each side. How can there be balance of thought'? On the one hand are all the illimitable resources of Government; on

the other, a few scratch crumbs that have been gathered together.
When we conduct a public debate upon a political issue in Britain we have certain strict rules which are a model for any democracy in the world. They are contained in the Representation of the People Act. Under those rules the most crackpot candidate on earth, provided he pays his deposit, has his rights. He has the right to free communication through the post, and to protection by Statute against an unfair amassing of the power of money against his campaign. But there have been no such safeguards in this case. That is the way in which the great debate has been conducted on the most important decision made in peace time by Britain at any time in her modern history.
We have heard in this House and outside in the past few years a great deal about participation. What sort of participation is this? Is this what we mean by democracy? Of course we cannot have direct democracy when handling tens of millions of people in the modern State. They cannot all gather together one day a week in the market place, as people did in Athens or now do in Swiss cantons, and express their wishes for or against a proposition. One must rely upon indirect democracy. But that is always open to abuse. It is open to a Government, once they have gained power, to use that power in a ruthless and and tyrannical fashion. When a Government do that, it is not a democracy but a plebiscitory dictatorship. You may well think, Mr. Speaker, that that is exactly what the Government are in this matter. They never had a mandate to do more than negotiate, and a mandate to negotiate is not a mandate to act. Over 60 per cent. of the Conservative candidates did not refer to the Common Market in their election addresses.

Mr. Maddan: What did the hon. Gentleman say to his electors about the matter?

Mr. Morgan: I made it clear that I was opposed to the Common Market root and branch—not that it was necessary, because that had been known for a number of years.
The Prime Minister cannot extricate himself from this situation because he has made it clear that he was unwilling, as he said some time ago, to lead his party


in this matter unless there had been an expression of the clear wishes of Parliament and the people. On television three weeks ago he maintained that "the people" meant the people through their elected representatives. But it was not so, and if were so it was mere tautology. Parliament means the elected representatives, and the people means the people at large. He has given a solemn undertaking and he is clearly in breach of his word.
We have been said to be rushing this matter. We are not rushing it. For 10 years this issue has been debated in Britain almost continuously, but never at any time during those 10 years has there been a clear majority of the British people in favour of this proposition. Indeed, you may think, Mr. Speaker, that unless there was a clear majority no Government had a democratic or moral right to proceed in this matter.
I object to the Common Market as a Britisher. I feel that economically, politically and constitutionally there is nothing but loss for us in it. But I can never forget at the same time that I am also a Welshman, and I revel in that status also. The rationale of the Common Market is the principle of unrestrained competition, and Wales knows better than any other country what the sufferings of a people can be when that people is subjected to uninhibited market forces.
In 20 years Wales suffered a migration catastrophe. In the years from 1920 to 1940, as hon. Members opposite well know, Wales lost over 500,000 of its people by migration, the equivalent of one-fifth of our total population as a people. It is about unrestrained competition that Articles 85 to 94 of the Treaty speak. Planning is reduced to a minimum; the law of the jungle must prevail for individuals as for communities; and even though the outward form of public ownership is preserved the reality and the substance is C.A.P. There is no denying these things.
Many Europeans have made a substantial counter-attack in relation to regional policies, and I would like to conclude by saying a very few words about this. First, the centre of the Market, as, I believe, every hon. Member of this House well understands, constitutes a very powerful vortex. There

are centripetal forces which will inevitably draw the human and material resources to the centre of the Market. Just look at what has happened in Western Germany over the last 14 years. Even though millions upon millions of people have come to Western Germany from Eastern Germany, Western Germany still draws population from the rest of Europe at a rate of about 500,000 a year.
The Secretary of State for Employment made the point that there was very little unemployment in the countries of the E.E.C. I am quite sure that there is one point which he did not fairly put to the House, and that is in relation to the demographic pattern. The figures I have for people going into Germany from other countries of the Common Market are very different from those which he put to the House. I believe that those figures, and the figures I got, come from O.E.E.C. reports over the years. The current runs very much swifter in outlying countries, and when we become one of those outlying countries—and I am thinking particularly of my own country of Wales—have no doubt at all that we shall suffer an outflow of the young and more virile elements in our community.
Secondly, the scale of regional aid which is afforded either by agencies of the Common Market or by the individual States is very small. The O.E.E.C. report for 1970 shows that the sums vested either by central agencies or by the States themselves in the countries of the Six each year in the years 1965 to 1970 were smaller in total than the £310 million spent upon regional aid by the Labour Government in the year 1969 to 1970. The Italian Government have boasted about what they spend on Mezzogiornio, but the total sum spent by the Cara it Mezzogiornio is only £3·5 million. How does that compare with the £67 million spent by the Labour Government in the year 1970 in Wales? More regional aid will be needed. It will be more difficult to provide it.
Every Member of the House should by now well know the contents of Article 92. There are exemptions from that Article, but, in the main, those exemptions can only be activated by the action of the Commission itself, not by the Council of Ministers, not by individual States, not, indeed by the


European Parliament, not by the non-bureaucrat members of the Commission.
A great deal has been said about sovereignty. It is not the Austinian concept of sovereignty that matters. Hon. Members are quite right when they say that this is quite superficial and unrealistic in our day. The sovereignty that has been lost in relation to the Common Market is the transfer of sovereignty of democratic institutions from the people who at the moment have a real involvement in these matters to bureaucracies not answerable to the people at large.
There is an article in the September 1970 issue of the Modern Law Review by a M. Gerard Beber, the Legal Adviser to the European Commission. This is what he says in relation to a case involving Italy which came recently before the European Court:
The Treaty creates its own legal order having real powers resulting from a transfer of powers from States to the Community.
He says further:
The transfer by the States involves a definite elimination of sovereign rights.
When I go into the Division Lobby on Thursday to vote against this proposition I shall do so feeling as certain of the justice of my stand as I have ever done in relation to anything in my life, for I am convinced that entry to the Common Market means the disadvantage of Britain, the very serious prejudice of Wales and, indeed, the destruction of the community which sent me here to represent its interests.

1.41 a.m.

Mr. David Waddington: The hon. Member for Cardigan (Mr. Elystan Morgan) will forgive me if I do not follow him down the various byways he has explored for the last 20 minutes. I certainly do not intend to argue with him the nature of plebiscitory dictatorship. We have heard some odd revelations during this debate, but it passes all belief that the hon. Gentleman should stand up in this House and say that he is a root and branch opponent of the Common Market and always has been a root and branch opponent of British entry into the Common Market, although he remained for two years a member of a Labour Government that

had applied for membership of that Community. That gives perhaps the clearest indication to the country of what sort of Administration was responsible for our fortunes over those two years.

Mr. Clinton Davis: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Waddington: I certainly will not give way. Unlike the hon. Gentleman, I have been here for many hours, and I want to mention the matters which influence me in my decision to vote in favour of the Motion on Thursday.
The hon. Member for Cardigan said very much what the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. Harold Wilson) said back in 1967 with reference to the agricultural policy, namely, that certain things had to be explored for the purpose of the negotiations, and the common agricultural policy was one. Hon. Members will remember him saying that that was something we had to come to terms with. Of course it was, and the hon. Member for Cardigan will no doubt agree that it therefore cannot be right for the right hon. Member for Huyton to try to justify his change of front over the last few months by saying that the common agricultural policy is not to his liking.

Mr. Elystan Morgan: There are two short points. First, during the two years when I was in Government the effective veto of the French President made the application an academic matter. Secondly, it was one year after 1967 that the common agricultural policy was put in a final form, thus changing the whole situation.

Mr. Waddington: To deal with the last point first, the Leader of the Opposition said in 1967 that that was a matter with which we had to come to terms and one which was not negotiable. That was repeated on later dates.
As for the hon. Gentleman's first point, I said that an application was made by the Labour Government long before the hon. Gentleman accepted a post in that Government, and that he remained in that post when the Government were saying that they would not let the matter drop, that they had been rebuffed by the French Government, but that, at the first opportunity, they would try, try and try again.

Mr. Clinton Davis: Will the hon. Gentleman give way now? I have been here for many hours—

Mr. Waddington: Very well. I give way to the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Davis: The hon. Gentleman made a completely wrong assertion. How does he square what he says with the fact that a number of hon. Members were serving in the present Administration until a few weeks ago, when this Government, as we understand it, had pledged themselves to entry?

Mr. Waddington: I cannot see the relevance of that remark. I am referring to the duty of a member of a Government, presumably, to support the policies advocated by that Government. It is extraordinary that anyone should remain a member of a Government and be a root and branch opponent of entry when the Government are committed to entry. However, I shall move on.
To the great benefit of this House, I tore up many speeches before finally preparing these few notes. If I had not torn them up, I might have regailed the House with a number of quotations. But most hon. Members are now sick and tired of hearing quotations of what was said by one hon. Member on one occasion and by another hon. Member on another. However, quotations are relevant to the extent that, if a Labour Government had been in power and the Labour Minister responsible for the negotiations had come back to London with anything like the terms which have been brought back by my right hon. and learned Friend, I do not believe that they would have been rejected by a Labour Government. I do not say that the right hon. Member for Huyton would have congratulated his negotiator, but certainly he would have congratulated himself.
I shall not deal with the economic arguments. Most people concede that substantial advantages will accrue to British industry as a result of membership. It is up to opponents of entry to be a little more clear about the courses open to us if we do not go into the Common Market. The other day, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith) argued that there was no need for us to think in

terms of any alternative grouping. He told us to look to the open sea. But it is not so long ago that he and other hon. Members argued that an alternative grouping was essential. In those days, they talked about a North Atlantic free trade area, and we know why we do not hear so much about that today. When all the indications point to the fact that we risk a return to an age of protectionism, it would be an act of folly for Britain to turn her back on the opportunity of getting back into the E.E.C.
Many hon. Members have expressed anxiety about the effect of entry on the regions. If the economy is stagnant, the regions suffer more than any other part of the country, because there is no footloose industry about looking to go to the regions, whatever incentives are offered to them to go there. Conversely, if the economy is on the move, obviously the regions benefit. There are companies wanting to expand, and they can be persuaded to go where older industries are declining. I believe, along with the bulk of the leaders of British industry, that entry will bring about that expansion in the economy which has been so sadly lacking in recent years. Therefore, as the Member of Parliament for a part of England which has had more than its fair share of trouble in recent years, I do not fear entry. I welcome it.
Some hon. Members have said today that if we entered the Common Market we should not be able to pursue our present regional policies. That is absolute rot. The countries of the Six have developed their own regional policies. France, for instance, has control of industrial building in the vinicity of Paris, and she has her loans and grants. It is true that, as yet, there is not a complete regional policy, but surely that is all to the good because we can play our part in shaping that regional policy.
Certainly we have no reason to worry because the Commission frowns upon attempts to attract foreign industry by offering financial inducements even in prosperous areas. It is obviously in our interests to stop that kind of nonsense. Who wants to see member States of the Community for ever trying to outbid their neighbours in the lavishness of incentives offered to foreign companies? Who wants to see foreign companies playing off one country against another? That


cannot possibly be in the long-term interests of anybody.
Some people argue that our regions are so remote from the heartland of Europe that they are bound to take a back seat. But our regions will be even more remote from this alleged heartland of Europe if we do not go into the Community, because between them and that heartland will be this tariff barrier which, for all we know, may grow larger as the years pass. The whole centre of gravity will shift as a result of our accession and our regions will be no more remote from the centre than many extremely prosperous areas within the Community now.
Lastly, I turn to the political consequences of entry and the question of sovereignty. In a sense entry involves a surrender of sovereignty. It involves this Parliament deciding that, in certain closely defined areas, it will act only in agreement with its fellow members. But it is surely good sense to point out that a country may have complete legal sovereignty, complete power to pass whatever laws it wishes in an attempt to control every kind of activity of its citizens, and yet be so weak as to be incapable of protecting its people from military, economic, or other action taken by other countries. Conversely, another country may sacrifice quite a lot of its legal sovereignty and yet, by acting in partnership with others, be able to exercise very much more power and give greater protection to its citizens than it ever could and did before that sacrifice was made.
If we stay out of the E.E.C. I believe that in years to come we shall not only exercise less influence over events on the Continent of Europe, but that, in an age of super Powers, our influence in the world as a whole will grow progressively less. If, on the other hand, we enter, our real power will not diminish, but be significantly increased.
Over the last few years we have learned the hard way. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), argued in a debate on 25th February last year that if we had been part of some political union in Europe in 1940 we would have lost the war. I thought at the time that that was a somewhat difficult argument to sustain, because surely the real lesson to be learned from the years between

the wars and up to 1940 is very different. We had the worst of all possible worlds. We could see events unfolding on the Continent of Europe which were almost certain to lead to war, a war in which we were almost certain to become involved, and yet we were almost completely powerless to influence those events as they unfolded. We never want to see anything like that happen again. As I have said, we have learned the hard way that we can never really escape involvement on the Continent of Europe, so we might just as well face facts and, as a partner in Europe, play our part in shaping events to our advantage and to the greater good of the whole world.

1.56 a.m.

Mr. Clinton Davis: Mr. Clinton Davis (Hackney, Central) rose—

Mr. Michael Fidler: On a point of order. Some of us, having been here throughout the debate, cannot help remarking that, other than the last speaker, we have had 10 speakers since 9.18 p.m., who have taken an average of 26·4 minutes each. How can the average back bencher wishing to make a contribution participate in this debate if so many speakers take so long?

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): Unfortunately, that is a matter over which the Chair has no absolute control. The Chair is trying to influence hon. Members as much as possible to keep their speeches within a reasonable length. It is true that speeches have been much longer today than previously. I hope that hon. Members will pass on to their hon. Friends who hope to speak that it will help matters if they try to keep their remarks shorter.

Mr. Clinton Davis: The hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Mr. Fidler) need not fear too much tonight, because only about four minutes are left. I want to refer briefly to the somewhat ill-tempered and unfair speech of the hon. and learned Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Waddington). The assertions that he made about my hon. Friend the Member for Cardigan (Mr. Elystan Morgan) were quite unjust. Two members of the present Administration remained in office until a few weeks ago. They knew quite well that the Government were negotiating for entry into Europe; they knew quite well that the crunch was to come—at least, the temporary crunch—on Thursday. Yet


they remained in office for a long time. I do not believe that there was anything dishonourable in that although, presumably, the hon. and learned Member would think that their conduct was thoroughly dishonourable. They knew the situation, and they retained office.
I believe that a Minister in that position is entitled to seek to exercise his influence upon his colleagues. I assume that that is what the two hon. Members to whom I have referred sought to do. I believe that that is the view that was taken by my hon. Friend, and I therefore think that the attack made upon him by the hon. and learned Gentleman was thoroughly misconceived and entirely unjust.
Like many hon. Members, I have been active in trying to sound out the views of my constituents about his momentous decision. I have had a large postbag, but of all the letters that I have received only two have supported entry into the Common Market, and those were from a husband and wife who decided to write independently of each other. My experience, going round the constituency and meeting people at their back doors, leads me to the conclusion that there is no doubt that the vast majority of the people in that working-class constituency are absolutely opposed to British entry.
My constituents know that they will have to pay a heavy price, in the shape of an increased balance of payments burden, the ending of our cheap food policy, dictation from Brussels and the loss of a great degree of our national sovereignty.
I believe that the people resent the fact that they have not been consulted. This matter has not been put to the electorate in any shape or form. It is not good enough for the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. Longden) to assert that the Conservative Party consulted the electorate on this issue: it is not true. To say that we are committed to nothing but negotiation is not the equivalent of saying that we are prepared to go into the Common Market. If the Tory Party had said that at the last General Election they would have been defeated.

It being Two o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.

Debate to be resumed this day.

ADJOURNMENT

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Clegg.]

Orders of the Day — UNEMPLOYMENT (SOUTH-WEST REGION)

2.0 a.m.

Dr. David Owen: I make no apology for drawing attention to the unemployment situation in Devon and Cornwall, because it is easy to be misled by the presentation of the statistics. The South-West has an unemployment level of 3·6 per cent., below the national average of 3·9 per cent., and it is easy for those in London to think that the South-West has no serious unemployment problem. But our problem is our peculiar geography, unlike that of any other region, and the serious unemployment figures in the peninsula. The unemployment rate in Devon is 5·1 per cent. and in Cornwall 6·6 per cent. In certain black spots it is much higher.
Therefore, my first contention is that unemployment in the far South-West is unacceptably high. These levels in October betoken very much worse to come, because they do not fully reflect the seasonal lay-offs which we expect at the end of the summer. The historical trend is that high October figures in our region are always very much higher in January and February.
I want to highlight this problem now, when remedial action can be taken, rather than bemoan the effects throughout the winter. Nor do I apologise for discussing the whole South-West. Although I am a Plymouth Member, one cannot consider unemployment in purely local or even constituency terms. Since, as a result of the last General Election, I am the only Labour Member West of Bristol, my mail bag is full every day with pleas for something to be done about the severe situation which we face this winter.
Unemployment is a national problem, and none of us in the West Country would ask for special favours. We realise the severe plight of some areas in Scotland and Wales. I am not specially pleading at the expense of already hard-hit areas. But particular areas of


Cornwall have unemployment as black as any in Scotland.
For instance, St. Austell, a very small area with a high unemployment already, now faces the prospect of nearly 800 men being made redundant. Not all these redundancies, announced by English China Clays Limited, will be in the St. Austell area, but most of them will. This will happen in a small area where the only industrial employment is in china clay industry, and it will have a severe effect.
In the Torbay region, it is hard to think back to a time when unemployment was a serious problem. But it is now; it is 5 per cent. and getting worse. Plymouth, the growth area of the region, has an unemployment rate of 4·6 per cent., and I know that the situation in Exeter is looking grim for the winter.
That is the prospect which faces us, and the question is, what can be done? The number of people chasing unfilled vacancies is extremely high. The overall unfilled vacancies in Devon total 2,897, yet a total of 14,167 people are looking for jobs, and there is a similar ratio in Cornwall.
The first thing that the Government must do is to look again at their regional policies, particularly as they affect regions like the South-West. The facts are that we need aid now, and what I ask myself and the House is "What is it reasonable for us in the South-West to ask of the Government?"
I believe that the first thing is that the regional employment premium should be raised. In areas of high seasonal unemployment there is some advantage in having a higher R.E.P. than in other areas, because the marginal choice which an employer might make about whether he can retain his current labour force during the winter months, knowing that it will have employment in the summer, can, I think, in a few cases, be influenced by the impact of an increased R.E.P.
I believe, too, that the boundaries of the South-West development area should be adjusted. We have already seen in Plymouth that intermediate area status, granted by the Labour Government has helped to attract industry, but a bigger incentive is needed if the Plymouth region is to become the growth centre that was

advocated in the South-West Regional Economic Planning Council's "Strategy for the Future". The development area should be extended to include Plymouth. The intermediate area, which now covers only Plymouth and the surrounding area, and which was recently extended to cover Tavistock and Okehampton, should be extended to cover the whole of Devon, which would help the Torbay and Exeter regions.

Mr. John Hannam: I endorse the hon. Gentleman's plea for the extension of intermediate area status to the whole of Devon, and certainly to Exeter, because there is not merely a seasonal trend in unemployment, but an underlying trend due to a falling away of the older industries. Intermediate area status would help to attract some of the newer, more labour-intensive industries to the industrial trading estates.

Dr. Owen: I am grateful for that endorsement of my plea because, although the argument can be advanced that if the jam is spread too thinly its incentive power is reduced, including the whole of Devon in an intermediate area is justified by present unemployment trends, and the extension of the development area to include Plymouth is also justified.
What further action can be taken now to help the situation as it develops, not just over the winter months, but all through 1972? There is no doubt that the South-West region is an attractive area for office development, particularly areas such as Torbay, Exeter, Plymouth, Falmouth and Camborne. There is there a sufficiently popular base to justify the Government's exerting pressure to locate offices in these areas.
As that programme will take some years to carry out, one asks what can be done now that will improve the situation? The winter works programme, two bites at which have been announced in recent months, does not give sufficient to the South-West. It is difficult to determine the grounds on which the Government allocate winter works programmes. I suspect that it is always bound to be a fairly ad hoc decision, but in the West Country there was a feeling during this summer and early winter that the chunk of winter works programmes allocated to the far South-West was not sufficient, and did not sufficiently bear in


mind the problems that we face there. While we appreciate that there are problems elsewhere, we ask for this problem to be looked at again.
What other immediate steps can be taken for our area? Of particular concern to me are the school leavers who are still finding difficulty getting a job. I wrote to the Secretary of State for Employment urging him to extend the training facilities in Devonport Dockyard, and, frankly, I do not believe that the cost of this should be borne by the Ministry of Defence.
In any event, my suggestion, which was made six or seven weeks ago, resulted in my receiving a disappointing reply today. The Minister points out in his letter that the number of young school leavers in Plymouth still seeking jobs has dropped. This is a hopeful sign. He also points out that not everyone seemed to be as keen as one might have thought to take apprenticeships in the dockyard.
But the principle at issue is that Government establishments have remarkably good training facilities. In times of high unemployment, especially when it seems that the level of unemployment will remain high for many months, if not years, there is an onus on the Government to expand their training facilities, and meet the extra cost on the budget of the Department of Employment.
I accept that measures such as these will not be able to guarantee jobs for every apprentice in the dockyard, but at least these youngsters will leave school and go on to learn a trade, and when a better economic and employment climate appears, they will have served an apprenticeship and, hopefully, go out on to the labour market with a skill which will, we hope, give them a better opportunity than they would otherwise have. I hope that the Secretary of State will consider this matter again, not only in the dockyard context but nationally.
What other help can we in the West Country be given. Above all, we need a picture of stability for the future. One of the most damaging decisions made in the whole sphere of regional policy was to announce that R.E.P. would end in 1974. I have written to the Chancellor of the Exchequer urging him to consider adopting a scheme similar to that operating in Italy, by which in certain regions

the employer is paid a contribution by the State, either in part or in full, towards the employer's contribution to social security benefits. This is almost identical in principle to R.E.P.
Almost every practical proposal that is put to the Government in an attempt to solve the problems to which I have been referring meets with not outright rejection but certainly no action. The time is fast approaching when we must have special incentives and initiatives to attract jobs to the West Country and to keep industry there once we have got it there.
I recognise that the most effective regional policy is overall economic growth, and we accept that the prosperity of the far-flung regions depends to a great extent on the prosperity of the nation. But there are regions, and the South-West is one, which face peculiar problems. We have a geographical problem and our lines of communication are long. We are grateful for what has been done to improve our communications and we welcome the promised improved road links with the Midlands and London. These are beginning to appear and they will help in the future.
But we need more help, and the only way to get it is to make industrialists believe that strong regional policies will be pursued beyond 1974, and that the time is fast approaching when some new initiative, a new policy to replace the regional employment premium which is apparently to be abolished in 1974, must be announced. The industrialist at present looking at the question of factory location policy sees the end of regional employment premium and wonders what will replace it. He has already seen the change in investment grants, a change which has damaged investment and has not helped the attraction of industry.
We must have a period of stability. The instability of new jobs was critically shown up a few weeks ago when the Prime Minister wrote saying that 2,500 jobs were in prospect over the next four years. I think that it was only two days later that the announcement came that a firm had postponed a decision to site a factory in the area, and overnight the new jobs prospect was reduced to 1,700. It is this kind of change in regional policy which can cause a dramatic reduction of the prospects for the future that


face young school leavers hoping to stay in the region, to remain with their families and to live in the region in which they were born.
I am not saying that people will not have to move. Some measure of mobility is inevitable in society, probably for good in Britain. No one can expect that everyone will be able to find employment in their place of birth. But the depopulation of the South-West, of some of the youngest and best people of our community, has been continuing for far too long.
Many of us hoped that the regional policies pursued from 1964 to 1970 would do much to redress the imbalance in the regional structure of the far South-West. They achieved much, but there are signs that that progress has been eroded with every month as the unemployment figures rise, as the prospects of new industry lessen and as the general mood of uncertainty continues.
Overall, nationally and in the regions, investment depends on overall economic prosperity and confidence. But at present industrialists do not have confidence in the regional policies likely to be pursued by the Government. I urge the Government to look at this problem with extreme urgency. Some very practical suggestions have been made, endorsed by the hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. John Hannam). We in the far South-West have the right to expect the Government to take action. We urge upon them that that action will have to be taken within the next few weeks if it is to have any impact on the rising unemployment.
In some areas the present unemployment figures are the worst since the winter of 1940, and those were in the extraordinary circumstances of war. We have to go back to the 1930's to see the same or parallel figures in some parts of our region.
We are a small region and do not have many voices able to raise our problems. I beg the Minister to recognise that in the far South-West our problems are severe and need urgent action.

2.18 a.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Nicholas Ridley): I am glad that the hon. Member has raised this important question of unemployment

in the South-West. It follows the concern felt by my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dame Joan Vickers), who received a long letter from my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister setting out the many things done by the Government to try to help and ameliorate the situation. I know that this concern for the problem, which is very serious, is shared by my hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr. John Hannam) and many hon. Members who represent the constituencies of the far South-West.
It is true that there is a slack level of manufacturing activity, a low interest in new investment and new projects in that part of the country and a migration of the younger people, and that there are very much higher unemployment rates throughout the area than any of us would like to see. In the South-West development area the present rate is 4·8 per cent., representing 6,475 people. In the intermediate areas it is 4·7 per cent., representing 4,952 people. The numbers are not large compared with the problems in the North and in Scotland, where the totals are far greater. It may be as black as it is in those areas, but it is not as big. I am the first to recognise that unemployment is a personal tragedy. However, although the numbers do not lessen the impact upon the individual, they are a factor which must be taken into account in deciding policy and trying to administer it.
I utterly reject the hon. Gentleman's implication that in some way the situation has been created by the Government. There have been three major infusions of new money into the economy since this Government came into office. They will amount to £1,100 million extra in circulation in 1971–72 and £1,400 million in a full year 1972–73. This has all been done by way of tax reductions, many of which were designed to help the regions and to increase industrial activity generally.
It is wrong to blame anything except the world recession. That right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) referred earlier to "the devastating effect a recession can have" upon these areas. This is the problem we are up against. English China Clay's most unfortunate shedding of workpeople is caused by the very slack demand for its products at home and, more especially, abroad. The


country as a whole is suffering from the world recession.
Everything that the Government have done has been designed to help and not in any sense to impede the recovery of the regions. If I quote what has happened in the South-West, it will be seen how real the Government's concern is and how much has been done. The South-West development area is now able to benefit from the substantial improvements we have made in assistance under the Local Employment Acts, a 10 percentage point increase in building grants, more flexible use of loan powers, and more money for basic services. Free depreciation is now available for all immobile plant and machinery for use in the development area. As investment grants were paid on a much more restrictive basis, this will be of particular value to the services sector, as will be the temporary increase in the first year allowance to 80 per cent. to the rest of Devon outside the development area. Our decision to maintain the first year allowance for building at 40 per cent. after the national rate reverts to 15 per cent. next year will also widen the differential in favour of the development and intermediate area.
We have also recognised the difficult and anomalous position of Tavistock and Okehampton by giving them intermediate area status to help them to overcome their particular problem of living under the shadow of the nearby development area and the Plymouth intermediate area to the South.
The hon. Member raised the question of the winter works programme, as he called it. The Government works programme is in two parts—the £150 million from infrastructure and the £46 million for housing, all of which are extras and which will be of particular benefit to the South-West. Indeed, there has been a very good response from the South-West in relation to the extra money for housing, and private landlords and local authorities are coming forward to take up their share more strongly than is the case in other parts of the country. It is not true that the South-West has not had its allocation of these extra sums.
I also rebut the hon. Gentleman's criticism about training. We attach the greatest importance to the provision of adequate training and retraining facilities. My right hon. Friend has constantly

reviewed the arrangements, and we fully accept the need to provide for any retraining needed by redundant workers. On 20th July my right hon. Friend announced measures to improve and extend the retraining facilities for unemployed workers. These will apply just as much in Plymouth and the South-West as in any other part of the country.
I think that one of the most important things that will help the region is communications. It is good news that the new spine road through the South-West should be complete by 1975. From my experience of other development areas, I believe it is essential that the road communications in particular should be there, or should be seen to be coming there, before one gets the response from industrialists that one would like to see.
The hon. Gentleman suggested some moves on the front of R.E.P., and I should like briefly to deal with them. We have honoured the seven-year commitment to keep it till 1974, and what happens at that time must, clearly, be decided in the light of the circumstances, but the Government are firm in their decision that they will not continue it, and nobody should think that that position has changed. It is not a satisfactory form of regional incentive. I can illustrate that argument in relation to the South-West.
In the whole of the counties of Devon and Cornwall there are only 25,800 people engaged in manufacturing who are eligible for the R.E.P. That is actually only 20 per cent. of the population of the South-West development area. So this cannot be a major factor in the economic life of those two counties. Furthermore, it is, as the hon. Gentleman knows, only paid to manufacturers, so I cannot see how this could affect the situation even if it were doubled in the way that he suggested, because manufacturing industry is not seasonal and the problem in Devon and Cornwall is largely seasonal due to tourism and other industries which shed labour during winter months. This will not be the case in general with manufacturing.
The hon. Gentleman asked about office building, and I will draw his remarks to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, whose responsibility this is. I would counsel the hon. Gentleman not to be


too depressed by the figures because neither in the development area nor in the intermediate area in the Torbay and Exeter sub-division has the rise in unemployment been as great as the national average. It has been a good deal less than in many badly-hit parts of the country. There are hopeful signs, particularly in the very great increase in tourist activity and mining activity in these areas.
The hon. Gentleman asked me about changes in the boundary status. I think it is a bad idea to be continually talking about boundary changes, and the Government would not lightly make any. We very much want to concentrate the amount of mobile industry that there is on the areas which really need it most. To extend continually the boundaries of development to the intermediate areas will water down the effect that such incoming business as there is will have on the particularly severe problems in those areas.
I should like to end on one bright note, and that is the Royal Dockyards. Prospects in the Royal Dockyards at Plymouth look brighter. These are currently employing about 11,000 people. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said

recently in his letter to my hon. Friend the Member for Devonport, they have a very full programme of work in the foreseeable future. In fact, the Royal Dockyards' programme as a whole is so full that it was necessary recently to place the refit of the submarine "Otter" to private contract. The Government are taking urgent steps to improve the efficiency of the dockyards and to raise the productivity of the labour force. The southern yards will continue to build small craft, and the Government will keep under review the possibility of building certain kinds of larger vessels, taking into account the value of the experience that the dockyards derive from such work, the comparative contract costs and the situation in the shipbuilding industry.
The Government are acutely aware of the seriousness of the problem—

The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock on Monday evening, and the debate having continued for half ail hour, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at half-past Two o'clock a.m.